It's not a matter of overrated ... it's if he survives ... I don't think anyone says he wins ... Shavers fought the Bugner returning after five years ... not the prime version ... Bugner's chin and safety first style and size are not overrated ... he has a shot of lasting w Foreman like he did vs Lyle and Frazier ... and he'd likely lose too ...
Respect for opinion DP. I'll just put a bit more detail into this. Bugner had only 1 fight in 5 the years prior to facing Earnie. Basically, 3 years inactive, 1 fight, then close to 2 years inactive. He was also a fat 245 lbs as opposed to 229 3/4 lbs when he fought Lyle in 1977. Against Shavers he was an overweight, 32 yo fighter with just 1 fight behind him in the previous 5 years. True though that Shavers himself was 37, near 38, about 6 lbs over his best weight but he was also that much more busy fighting around that time and still held his punch. The fight was stopped on a cut so it’s always going to be speculation either way as to what might’ve come next. Even the commentator noted that it was a tough way to end/lose a fight - there was no sentiment expressed that Bugner was going to be seen off anyway. I’ve seen every punch Earnie landed. He landed a lot, as I said, and a lot were foul shots. The uppercut you referred to is yet another blinding example of Earnie blatantly and deliberately holding and hitting - but again, even though it was a howler, Bugner still took the punch. Bugner did stutter a bit but, for all intents and purposes, he was still clearly viable to continue. It’s not highly speculative at all to predict Shavers starting to gas badly in the next several rounds - particularly after throwing so many hard punches. It was clear (at least to me) that Shavers, though a KO artist with the mindset to go with same, was trying especially hard to see Bugner off quickly. Earnie was not pacing at all for a longer fight. Gassing in the fashion mentioned was in Earnie’s history - and that is another thing (= possibility of same) that the commentators also made reference to. I think what's being over-sighted is that Bugner was beginning to land more in round 2: some stiff jabs and chopping punches - all the while, Earnie was still hitting low and holding/hitting and clearly using up some serious fuel. As to Bugner being overrated - we’re talking initially and primarily Joe’s durability and stamina against two fighters - materially demonstrated vs Earnie and hypothetically against George - two fighters who were known to swing for the fences and then tire badly if their opponent was still standing after 3-4 rounds. I did originally cite Frazier’s left hook, knockdown and apparent show of mercy toward Bugner - and I think I clearly implied that Joe could’ve seen Bugner off completely with a few more follow up shots of Frazier had let them go. But it’s worth noting that the KD of Bugner came late, in round 10, after an already grueling fight, with even that version of Frazier being much more consistently applied and still showing better stamina than either Foreman or Shavers. The Frazier left hook was a screamer, and the best of Frazier’s on point, left hooks compare very well to the general power demonstrated by either Foreman or Shavers. Re fighters who are/were known to gas and tail off on their offense as a fight went longer, surviving against them can also equate to paving the way for an ultimate victory. For one specific example, Randall Cobb basically survived Shavers and then cleaned up the fast-fatiguing hulk before him. IF Bugner did hang tough for 10 rounds - I could envisage the 70s version of Foreman becoming exponentially more vulnerable from rounds 11 through to 15. Not sure Champ where you’re getting 10-2 for Frazier, the referee Harry Gibbs scored it 58 1/2 to 59 1/4 - the only official score for the fight. From recollection (my last viewing was a while ago) it was a reasonably close fight.
A few posters in this thread suggested Bugner could beat Foreman hence why I said hes being overrated. And no I don't think Bugner goes the distance with Foreman.
@Pugguy i don't normally like breaking down posts like this with quotes but i feel i have to so i can reply to you the best i can which each point you made. Yeah all true and i'm glad you brought up about Shavers aswell so you're being balanced and down the line here so i've got nothing to add really. Fair enough that's a reasonable view as i said though it's all speculation and we'll never know for sure. Maybe i was a bit unfair to Bugner bringing up the Shavers fight, but it sprung to mind as Shavers was a big puncher and came out aggressively, which i associate with in regards to Foreman even if they have different styles and the way they go about fighting. Pugguy trust me mate that score is total bogus if you ask any fan who's watched the fight they will have it pretty wide for Frazier. I think at most Bugner won 3 rounds i can't really see anymore rounds for him TBH. It was one of those fights where Bugner was in the fight most of the way but there was no debate on who was winning a majority of the rounds. If i can finish this conversation off Pugguy so we can agree to disagree i'll say this.... To me Bugner looked the part physically but never really went to the next level for me in regards to upper echelon fighters. I've made this comparison before but to me reminds of me of Tony Tucker in the 80s, two tall pretty durable Heavyweights who had a passive style of fighting but never really stood out. The issue i have Pugguy is that where i think Bugner is getting overrated is that the suggestions that Bugner could beat Foreman to me is a bit silly not to sound offensive. But i just don't think of Bugner as that "guy" and honestly i think Foreman would come out aggressively club away at Bugner and i don't think Bugner would be able to cope with it TBH. That's just the way i see it maybe Shavers comparison wasn't the best because both fighters were considerably past it, but as i said i used that example because of Shavers being a puncher and the way he came out aggressively. Could Bugner survive against Foreman ? possibly but i personally don't see it that's just my opinion.
He also got up to nearly return the favor seconds later. I don't buy this "Frazier showed mercy" crap. He had a chance to outdo Ali in a situation where he'd also trained himself down to 208 in an extremely critical return from ignominiously losing the title. In the tenth round, an exhausted 1973 Foreman doesn't survive either shot.
I've repeatedly pointed out that George never produced a KD past round five while in his 20's. He was there when Earnie uniquely knocked out Tiger Williams at the end of ten, and Shavers took round 14 on all three cards over Ali, something Foreman never could've pulled off. Yes, his tank was running on fumes as the final bell sounded for Ali, but from 1975 to 1977, Earnie's stamina was better than what young George ever displayed. In round nine, he also needed just one to drop Tillis on his face. That's pretty much a huge difference between Foreman and Shavers. Unless one's name was Cobb, Earnie could produce a flattener at any time. Past round five, unless he had already inflicted a severe cut, George was in trouble.
Bugner could move, was durable, well schooled, had fast hands, could lay back, and had dangerous power when he chose to unload it. Unlike Foreman, he put Denis on the floor to end matters. He was also a Championship Distance veteran. This is going into double digit rounds. George won't like that much.
Says who? Foreman was able to go 12 with Shannon Briggs when he was past 45. Went the distance every fight of his 2nd title reign. Only reason George couldn't go 12 in the 70s is cause no one took him there except Jimmy Young and Peralta. Thats not Georges fault.
Foreman certainly triggers you doesn't he. You claim he didn't really hurt Young in round 7 and that Young was playing possum. You have old Foreman schooling young Foreman. You had Gene Tunney schooling him. Quarry had his number. You took Tex ****ing Cobb over him of all people LOL You had Baer beating him with Foreman not even competitive. Perhaps best of all you stated "Loughran and Tunney win 15 of 15 rounds over Foreman, exposing George's inexperience in every way. Foreman was afraid of being embarrassed and exposed like that." Now Joe bloody Bugner. There's loads more too. What next, Howard Davis Jr running for 5 rounds then pitter patting George for the next 10 to prevail? Or does he win 15 out of 15 like Loughran and Tunney? You can't make this **** up.
Dude, his grills suck! What more reason do I need for hating him? (Like Larry Holmes said, just pour the grease out of the damned frying pan...)
