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janitor 08-25-2007 07:40 AM

Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
John L Sullivan

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

Jim Corbett

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

Jim Jeffries

(If Jack Johnson then name a number 2 choice)

Jack Johnson

(If Sam Langford then name a number 2 choice)

Jack Dempsey

(If Harry Wills then name a number 2 choice)

Gene Tunney

Joe Louis

Ezzard Charles

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Muhamad Ali

Larry Holmes

Michael Spinks

Mike Tyson

Evander Hollyfield

Lennox Lewis

KTFO 08-25-2007 07:44 AM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
:rofl :rofl :rofl


This thread was so predictable.

janitor 08-25-2007 07:50 AM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KTFO
:rofl :rofl :rofl


This thread was so predictable.

So who do you pick then?

ChrisPontius 08-25-2007 09:07 AM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Off the top of my head:

John L Sullivan

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

Jim Corbett

(If Peter Jackson then name a number 2 choice)

I don't know enough about this era.

Jim Jeffries

He should've fought Jack Johnson.

Jack Johnson

(If Sam Langford then name a number 2 choice)

Mcvey, Jeanette, Smith, anyone. Those white hopes were terrible including the one who finally beat him. Can't really blame Johnson for fighting them considering circumstances, but it does hurt his legacy.

Jack Dempsey

(If Harry Wills then name a number 2 choice)

Why is Wills not a legit mention? My impression is that Dempsey or his management wanted no part of Wills for a full 5 years. That must be the longest ducking job ever. Wasn't Wills supposed to get his shot if he won a certain fight, which he did and of course never received his shot? I think Rock Newman learnt a lot from Dempsey and his management.

Arguably Jack Renault and George Godfrey late in his Dempseys career. I think there's another that slips my mind. He did already beat a lot of contenders before his titleshot.

Gene Tunney

Arguably George Godfrey. He could've been a bit more active but i don't think you can blame that much for his choices, especially considering his reign was rather short. Heeney may not have been the best out there, but every champion takes an easy defense.

Joe Louis

You could argue for a few black challengers '46-'48, although he pretty much cleaned up the division before that. Elmer Ray and Lee Q Murray (padded record). But in fact he took on Jersey Joe Walcott in '46 who was ranked higher than the former two, and gave Walcott a well-deserved rematch after it, so there's no blame on Louis.

Ezzard Charles

Charles was pretty active and i don't think you can blame him for his choices of oppenents.

Rocky Marciano

He faced the #1 contender four times and the #2 contender once. Spotless reign.

Floyd Patterson

Many people will say Sonny Liston, but i disagree.
He lost to Johansson in mid '59, which was only a few months after Liston first beat a ranked contender (DeJohn). Perhaps he already signed to fight Johansson before Liston beat DeJohn.
Then has two more good fights with Johansson to determine who the best man is. After that he took one easy defense (T. McNeely) and he faced Liston after that. Realistically, he avoided Liston for little over a year. Not for 4 years as some people like to make out.

Muhamad Ali

George Foreman during the better part of '76 and 77.

Larry Holmes

Pinklon Thomas, Greg Page, Michael Dokes and Gerrie Coetzee. In addition to that, he failed to give very deserved rematches to Ken Norton, Tim Witherspoon, Mike Weaver and Carl Williams.

Michael Spinks

He dropped his belt to avoid Tucker and fight an unranked, coked up ****ey instead, so obviously Tony Tucker.

Mike Tyson

During his linear reign: no one really. Holyfield arguably, but he was next in line after Douglas and although i would've liked to see him fight Witherspoon, Witherspoon kind of got out of the picture after that first round KO loss.

In '96 he dropped his title to avoid the mandatory challenger, Lennox Lewis, though they did square off later.

Evander Hollyfield

No one really. The Lewis fight could have happened a year earlier, but i think it was politics and Don King delaying that one.

Lennox Lewis

You could argue Byrd in 2002 as he dropped a title, but i think this would've been a rather meaningless fight seeing how easily a similar fighter to Lewis (Wladimir Klitscho) beat Byrd.

After having dealt with Don King to get the Holyfield fight, King got some power which made Ruiz the mandatory. Lewis dropped the WBA belt because Ruiz at that point had not beaten a significant fighter since Tua layed him out in 17 seconds. Instead, he fought Grant who was perceived much more dangerous and had recently beaten Golota. If i remember correct, Grant was even a slight favorite going into that one.

janitor 08-25-2007 11:26 AM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Why is Wills not a legit mention? My impression is that Dempsey or his management wanted no part of Wills for a full 5 years.

Wills is such an obvious choice that I think it more usefull to discuss the second most deserving challenger that Dempsey never faced.

Where the No 1 shafted contender is a no brainer I have asked for another name.

ChrisPontius 08-25-2007 11:33 AM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
I see, i thought it had something to do with the color line, since you only mentioned it for the early champions. Who do you think Dempsey should've fought other than Wills?

janitor 08-25-2007 11:42 AM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I see, i thought it had something to do with the color line, since you only mentioned it for the early champions. Who do you think Dempsey should've fought other than Wills?

I think that Harry Greb did enough to deserve a shot at the title. He beat most of the fighters Dempsey defended his title against and tried to get a fight with Wills to establish himself as the No1 challenger.

Some sources suggest that Dempseys managment saw Godfrey as a big risk though Godfrey was never quite consistent enough to position himself as the No1 challenger.

The big what if is Godfrey fighting Wills to determine which of them was the outstanding challenger for Dempseys title. Godfreys managment tried to arrange such a fight.

scartissue 08-25-2007 11:46 AM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
I believe Gene Tunney avoided Jack Sharkey. Sharkey had beaten George Godfrey, Harry Wills, Jimmy Maloney and had that crazy fight with Dempsey which splashed him across the media despite the loss. Drawing with Heeney and then Tunney choosing Heeney as the challenger was grasping for a life preserver because Sharkey was the box office attraction at this time, not Heeney. I believe it would have been a great fight.

If there was anyone Joe Louis could have fought and didn't, I think it would have been Jimmy Bivins, primarily because he held the duration title while Louis was in the service. But this is thin since Louis fought everyone.

If there was anyone Marciano didn't fight (and I won't use the word 'avoided' with Marciano) it would have been Nino Valdez. Beat Charles the year before Marciano's 2 fights with Ezzard and should have been given the shot instead of Don ****ell. And BTW, he stopped ****ell in 3 after Don's fight with the Rock.

Just like I believe Al Weill was the guy who avoided Valdez, I believe it was Cus D'Amato who avoided Zora Folley. How long was he number 1 contender or at least top three? I think throughout the '56-'62 era in which Patterson held the title.

Scartissue

janitor 08-25-2007 11:55 AM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scartissue
I believe Gene Tunney avoided Jack Sharkey. Sharkey had beaten George Godfrey, Harry Wills, Jimmy Maloney and had that crazy fight with Dempsey which splashed him across the media despite the loss. Drawing with Heeney and then Tunney choosing Heeney as the challenger was grasping for a life preserver because Sharkey was the box office attraction at this time, not Heeney. I believe it would have been a great fight.

If the general forum had existed at this time a lot of people would have been saying that he should have fought Jack Sharkey or Johny Risko instead of Tom Heeney. That seems to have been the opinion on the ground at the time.

It should be noted however that Heeney did win a tournament to get the title shot.

JohnThomas1 08-25-2007 12:17 PM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by janitor
Larry Holmes

Super Greg Page!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Robbi 08-25-2007 12:20 PM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Super Greg Page!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JT. Quick question. Who has been the best heavyweight since Ali retired in 1978?.

ChrisPontius 08-25-2007 12:26 PM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scartissue
I believe Gene Tunney avoided Jack Sharkey. Sharkey had beaten George Godfrey, Harry Wills, Jimmy Maloney and had that crazy fight with Dempsey which splashed him across the media despite the loss. Drawing with Heeney and then Tunney choosing Heeney as the challenger was grasping for a life preserver because Sharkey was the box office attraction at this time, not Heeney. I believe it would have been a great fight.

Dempsey did knock out Sharkey to get his shot against Tunney. I think this put Sharkey a bit down as worthy challenger for the moment.

JohnThomas1 08-25-2007 12:28 PM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbi
JT. Quick question. Who has been the best heavyweight since Ali retired in 1978?.

Super Greg, and barring him definitely Lennox Lewis

;)

Robbi 08-25-2007 12:44 PM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Super Greg, and barring him definitely Lennox Lewis

;)

Holmes would have smoked Page. Late TKO.

Dempsey1238 08-25-2007 12:47 PM

Re: Name the best challenger these champions failed to meet
 
Holmes does not have a "Super" in his name. We all know the winner would have to be Super to be able to beat Holmes lol.


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