71 Ali vs Marciano
 

So decided to use a version of Ali that many would argue was past his prime. Who would win between 71 Ali and Marciano?. I pick Ali

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

Marciano...Ali couldn't do anything with Joe Frazier in the FOTC back in March 1971...that's why he fucked around on the ropes...waved to the crowd...shook his head"no" when Joe hit him with a good shot...Marciano just kept on coming...power in both hands...great heart...chin...tons of stamina..."kill or be killed" attitude...high workrate...hurt you no matter where he hit you...pain meant nothing to him...tough mentally...Ali's head games wouldn't work on Marciano...fearless...broke bones and blood vessels...Ali would have to fight 3 minutes of every round against Marciano...something he never did...Rocky never took any rounds off...tough to beat a fighter like The Rock with a left jab...Ali had as tough time with Rocky during the computer fight in Miami in August 1969...shortly before Rocky was killed in a plane crash...

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

People will compare this fight to the Frazier fight but Frazier had the left hook that was Ali's achilles heel, Marciano's really isn't quite as good. Frazier was also bigger and I think quicker and more intense. Still FOTC was a close fight on a round by round basis, with Ali taking most the early rounds

You obviously haven't seen the fight, Ali bossed the first half of the fight pretty much

Also why do Marciano fans keep talking about 'breaking blood vessels'? Do they not know that only means he bruised them? :lol:

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

ill use alis own words.when asked who would give him the toughest fight ali ansered without hesitation.rocky marciano...in a interview with howard cosell ali talked about all the heavys and how he could beat them.when rockys name came up he said i cant say id beat him or he could beat me.its all left up to the imagination.ali then added i imagine he would of beat me.fantasy fights are just that.fantasy.lets just say both are true all time greats and to me the likes of either one will not happen again.

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

Gotta hand it to 'em, though. I think Marciano has hands down the most loyal fan base of any fighter in the history of the sport. They absolutely ADORE their little heavyweight champion. There is something of a racial element involved I presume or something that a lot of them can relate to, but this is the case for virtually every other fighter of different ethnic origins and nationalities (and it's undeniably HUGE) and nobody says one lick about it. I've always found it kind of silly anyway; Styles, Talent and Ability determine which fighters I like. Not to say Marciano doesn't have fans based on those traits alone. :good

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

The one aspect often ignored is Frazier puts on a quicker pace of pressure which allowed him to get Ali so idle on the ropes for so long. The key response from Marciano fans is that if Ali was on the ropes like that against Marciano that Marciano would make Ali pay more than Frazier had. The reasoning is Marciano had a better two fisted attack, and that Marciano had even superior conditioning/work-rate. The problem is Ali wouldn't be on the ropes quite as often. I've stated I believe the best version of Marciano would beat FOTC Ali. But the reality is that while Marciano might be a coin toss in odds to win (50/50), his chances are noticeably less than Frazier's (Who was the actual favorite going into the fight).

Despite not having quite the same intensity of pressure. Marciano throws bit more punches when he can get in the necessary range in my opinion. Since Ali went for the early KO and depleted his reserves, I imagine Marciano would capitalize and out-work Ali for the remainder of the second half of the fight, despite Ali not being on the ropes for nearly as long (Unless he voluntarily decided to do so). A real pick em fight, though.

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

If you watch the whole program a little longer he turns back into "ALI" and He said he would have beaten him and that Marciano fought an "Old Joe Louis," and "Old Walcott," An "Old Charles,' an "Old Moore"...and that all of those guys would have beaten him had they been prime

Ali was a bit of mixed character.

Edit: Found it.

Entire program in my thread.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. Click Here To Register...]

And here is the part:

It starts at 4:07 with Marciano. And by 7:02...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G226LGvXTI8[/ame]


And how would you have fought him?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tddEUn-DKL0[/ame]





_____

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

Nice post Pete, but do you not think Ali's significant size advantage will play a big role? :think

At 215lbs to Marciano's 184lbs, that's a 31lb weight advantage...

Both are functionally very strong but Ali is so much bigger, his heavy leaning on Rocky's neck could pose major problems.

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

Powerpuncher...Not seen the fight?...I saw it live on closed circuit tv back in 1971...I've been watching boxing since 1964...

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

I'm a Rocky fan myself, didn't used to be but I've become a fan of his underrated skillset, smarts and what he achieved

I also think against this version of Ali it certainly would be a close fight

I just always laugh at the 'broken blood vessels' line :D


Many happy years :good Still though if you've watched it recently surely you have to acknowledge Ali bossed the early rounds?

Good points but certain issues to address:

1. Would Rocky's slower pace see him just not catch up to Ali?
2. Would his lesser emphasis on the left hook, Ali's weakness see him have less success?
3. As a smaller man would he be able to walk through the punches Frazier did? Would Ali leaning on him tire Rocky out?

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

We can thank Teddy for that little gem. :lol:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images...op_650x440.jpg

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

Oh, I didn't mean anything bad by it by any means. I like Marciano for a reason too.. He's a short, come-forward fighter who presses the action and piled up KOs. I'm also a big fan of Tyson, Duran, Armstrong among others. On top of that, he's legitimately tougher than rusted nails. I don't think there's any type of sensationalism where his conditioning, toughness, heart are concerned. He gets too much shit I think for his fighting weight compared to today's heavies and some of his wins are too easily written off. I rate Walcott and Charles wins pretty damn high for example based on how they actually look in there.

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

Frankly didn't think too much of that. It's a possibility. When I think of FOTC Ali I don't think of the savvy post prison Ali that subtlety took any advantage he could over an opposition. The FOTC Ali was on the ropes often taking body-shots a lot... far more voluntarily seeming than an older Ali would. Sure he did hold, and sometimes even lean but he was quite a bit more inexperienced in these rough tactics of fighting. Surely the Ali of Frazier II, Manilla, Zaire, and Norton III were far more desperate and effective in employing such maneuvers.

Without sounding too much of a fanatic. I tend to think Marciano was incredibly strong for a HW of his size & weight. Ali could surely manhandle him in the clinches as he showed this potential when he did so to Foreman. Marciano, like Frazier, will need a fair ref to allow themselves a chance to fight their fight. Someone once posted the FOTC compubox numbers and I wasn't overly impressed. While Ali's leaning could pose effects to Marciano beyond my imagination - I truly believe in Marciano's strength and conditioning. His work rate is second to none at HW. Marciano rarely loses rounds in the second half of a fight (Particularly the swarmer volume version post Walcott I). The key is can Marciano get Ali into vulnerable positions early enough. Frazier inflicted more pain and caused Ali great exhaustion earlier than Marciano ever could. But even Frazier rested and picked his shots on the ropes. Marciano would give Ali even less time to rest.

Of course, Ali's vulnerability to the left hook, and the counter of Frazier's left hook over Ali's right hand was a technical vulnerability Frazier was more suited to stylistically expose. At the same time, Frazier explodes and sort of leaps in from a mid-range much more dangerously from a distance than Marciano ever could. Not to mention, Frazier definitely had faster hands, particularly his left hook, and his left jab is far more of a factor and weapon than Marciano's almost non-existent jab. Thinking about it now, Frazier's jab had quite a surprising amount of hits on Ali if memory serves me correct. Something that often goes overlooked is the fact that Frazier seemed to abandon it in Manilla. The Thrilla Doc talks about how Frazier got hit early with rights hands in Manilla because he wasn't getting low enough. Not jabbing also could have allowed for Ali to get set and have far more comfort throwing those shots from a distance without being pushed back by a blinding jab that could have a right hand or left hook behind it...

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

Superb post, maybe despite his serious lack of size, Marciano deserves very decent odds. :good

Just one thing though, Peak Rocky being significantly slower than Peak Joe, may allow Ali to avoid a lot more punches with his leaning back defence.

Re: 71 Ali vs Marciano
 

1. Yes, a big point. I think it would have him catch Ali far less and more often only at a later point in the fight. This is the crux of why I imagine most sane Marciano fans would predict a 64-67 Ali to beat Marciano. I don't think Ali can simply ship on his bike and dance and move for 15 rounds without getting touched. I think the Bonavena fight showed this. Ali's movement will slow down and Marciano will get in a range where he can operate. The question is can he and when he does will it be too late to make up the rounds he lost IMO.

2. Yes, especially at a mid-range and especially in the middle of the ring. However, you have to ask yourself that if Marciano is able to get Ali on the ropes for as sustained of a time Frazier did (Even if its a little later in the fight), will he have more success while he can (Assuming he can)? Will he have more potential to throw more punches and perhaps more heavier punches than Frazier?

3. I tend to think Marciano was actually more durable than Frazier (He was smaller so it may be hard to evaluate). I think Frazier slipped a good enough amount of Ali's shots. Frazier's bob & weave style allows him to be more aggressive while still being defensively conscious than Marciano which is why he holds a stylistic advantage over Ali (At least in comparison to Rocky). When it comes to durable, the left hook Ali stunned Frazier with in round 9 wouldn't have had the same impact on Marciano IMO (Maybe Marciano doesn't get hit with such a clean shot anyhow. Who knows).


I acknowledge that the problem with Marciano fans on this matchup is that they see Ali on the ropes with Frazier for such a sustained amount of time and think if that was Marciano he would've dealt even more damage to Ali on those ropes. Maybe so, but they tend to ignore or simply forget the stylistic attributes & differences that enable Frazier to employ a speed of pressure that allowed him to get Ali in those vulnerable positions. A position which Marciano may or may not have taken greater advantage of... if he could ever see fit that he could get Ali into such a position. And if he could, at least in time to be able to still win a decision because he's not knocking out Ali. That's the entire question and dynamic to this fight. Ultimately, Frazier deserves more credit (Especially from Marciano fans).

Damn ESB ate up my reply. Good point. I'll try to summarize it. Frazier's speed advantage would allow him to operate better from a mid-range. His attributes and style are a lot more explosive with that leaping left hook which countered Ali's right hand to great effect. I also forgot to mention that Frazier has an inch in height and a 5 inch reach advantage. Basically this fight is purely an inside fight for Marciano. Frazier's pressure pushed Ali back but his left hand that had a respectable amount of success from a mid range also helped push Ali back toward the ropes.

There's another aspect I forgot to analyze. Frazier's bob & weave style not only enables him to provide a quicker speed of pressure, but it also allows for Frazier to cut of the ring better than Marciano. Marciano's crouch is a much more defensively rooted stance. Marciano was said to feint with his feet and hands. The crouch puts a fighter off the plane of attack and allows them to get in position to attack on an angle. But I tend to think it may have limitations when it comes to cutting of the ring. Marciano's crouch puts Marciano's feet more apart and at an angle. Frazier is a lot more forward and centered. His stance is not quite as wide which helps for mobility. He relies far more on dipping up and down while pressing forward, rather than shifting off the line of attack like Marciano does. This factor makes me reconsider Marciano's odds. Perhaps his chances are more around 30-40% percent than 50/50.