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Old 02-28-2012, 05:42 PM   #790
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Originally Posted by brown bomber View Post
Philly Shell Q's

This is a tremendous breaksown and I love the roman guard ****ogy. My question is this- how do you deal with looping shots from the mayweather/toney/hopkins defence.... I can box a littloe out of this guard and my natural instinct is to roll .... what stops a persistant attacker?
I love that video.

Basically looping shots like wild-ish hooks can be rolled, very effectivly from this style, although it is more geared to slips and lay backs, rolling can be done well.

A looping overhand right can be an effective shot, but you have to remember this is the easiest shot to see coming, so it is a risk but if set up right, by say a body attack it can be very effective.

Is it the counters alone? Surely eventually the attacker will begin to wear down the defender?
How so? If the defender continues to land clean and the attacker is missing, only one man is being worn down!

Its a style that maximises counters, so I think matches but fairly well with persistant attackers.

Why did Catilijo give mayweather so much trouble?
Sort of mentioned it with the overhnd right thing. Everyone at my gym thinks I'm a genius cause I canbreak down this style pretty well. Basically the chest is the area to aim at, as it doesn't move and it throws your man off-balance and then you can target the head and body with ease. Also you can distract your opponent int this guard by say going to the body with some light shots then lamping a big one up stairs.

Basically I want to identify flaws in the style- before I use/teach it!
Clever man, I find a good way to find out the flaws is try it out.

I'd say a flaw is you can get swamped with it, if you set your feet and allow your man to get too close without letting off counters. Another thing is, it is really important to shoot counters out of this style as its hard, as with any defensive style, to keep a man missing for time. Make em miss and make em pay, is a must for this style, more than any other.

Originally Posted by SkillspayBills View Post
I personally believe the style has a psychological effect on the opponent. It's a sign of confidence which sometimes makes the opponent feel inferior. Early on if there punches aren't landing or just hitting arms it IMO breaks confidence. Also if used well as you say the counters can make the opponent weary of throwing which again falls back into the Psychological stuff.

Flaws well it can be exposed if not set in stone, like all styles it has it's weaknesses if a fighter is willing to throw two's three's fours often for young fighters or fighters not perfectly trained using the roll they get caught and befuddled because it's hard to deal with and takes years. Early on i have no doubt with young fighters there would be more failure then success using the style but watching a football session last night with Ray Lewington he said something that struck a cord 'you gotta fail sometimes before you get better'. It's obviously a vastly more dangerous sport but with good coaching it can be made to work.
Yeh, I agree here it takes a good while to learn it thoroughly to be top class with it. I try it out all the time and I'm just starting to get it to work, after years of getting my head punched in.

So Volume is one, Fighters mentally need to have a calmness and quick reactions. Volume was what undone Mitchell's shoulder roll against Katsidis as well as poorly placed hands and to aggressive.
Volume if your not firing back with crisp counters, you will be overrun with it, or trying to be 'too cute' with it, by say staying on the ropes etc... can be a big mistake also.

I also believe fighters become a little to flat footed and rely on upperbody movement and don't use the backleg enough. The jab and right hand over shoulder is a difficult one as fighters get blinded by the jab and right hand sneaks over. Speed also troubles the style like others.
Agree, it is easy to become too flat footed, and I think this leads to people becoming 'too cute' an staying 'in' too long.

The important parts that get overlooked are the actually rolls away from punches and the leverage fighters get in there stance.
Good point. I think this one maximises the right hand and right uppercut, and a low left hook (especially if rolling)

Originally Posted by DanielJFiasco View Post
I think the "Philly Shell" (we need a better name for it...) gets too much credit due to Floyd Mayweather. The basis of Floyd's success is more to do with how he implements it. I think his best defensive trait is his manipulation of angles. When he throws shots he puts himself in positions where his opponent can't counter from balanced positions. Even if somebody reads him and gets a shot off at him, it's rarely from a solid base. It's a myth that he relies on great reflexes. Sure his reflexes are good, but what flatters them is that Floyd is leading the dance, he is showing openings and then closing the door on them.
Very good points, I don't think this style is like instant defensive greatness or anything but it can be very effective if used right and combined with other stuff like angles and range, as Floyd does very well.

The first Castillo fight is a strange one. Whether it was to do with his broken hand or not, Mayweather certainly wasn't at his best. He got squared up a lot against the ropes, and at times he crossed the line between fighting off the back foot, and just running, which is unusual for him. Here's an example showing Mayweather absolutely square against the ropes and being caught, something you don't see very often with Floyd. Castillo gets his lead foot right down the middle and goes to work. Floyd, realising he has got himself into a bad position then gets his on his bike.
Nice ****yisis been a while since I seen it.

But I actually think it would be a boxer who could beat Floyd's shell, not a pressure fighter. A good boxer who can out position him, and draw his leads (that springing right hand for example) and then punish him. That said, I thought Marquez would be a tough night for him
Nah pressure does work but it needs to be smart. Theres a really good series of articles written onhow to beat Floyd written by Springs Toledo for thesweetscience, that I think anyone enjoying this conversation would enjoy.

Back to your question, speaking just about the Shell and not Mayweather, I think pressure and volume can overwhelm it, as can a great feinter but for me squaring the guy up cuts it wide open, more so than any other guard. It's the equivalent of flipping the turtle over and slicing into it's soft underbelly to use Hopkins terminology! If its defense was THAT good, you wouldn't be able to order turtle soup!
agree there, good point

Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
You'd think that, for those reasons exactly AND the fact you'd need a good jab to offset Floyd's, that Arguello would be the perfect foil for Floyd. His punch picking, accuracy, timing, and nearly unsurpassed ability to place his feet in te perfect position to get off certain shots. He's also one of the hardest chinned, hard punching monsters of all time, the archetypal boxer-puncher (or rather stalker-puncher ) and a man who could keep a strong pace throughout the championship rounds.

Unfortunately, his feet were set in stone in terms of chasing an opponent around. Floyd's feet and movement surpass Vilomar Fernandez IMO, and his best offence is sharper and faster, if not as all-out dangerous, as Jose Luis Ramirez's, who also outmanoeuvred Alexis whilst employing an aggressive output.

I'd actually say Floyd is Arguello's stylistic nightmare despite Arguello looking the tick the boxes in terms of drawing the picking opportunities from Floyd.

It probably wouldn't be easy though. Not even Marcel had it easy.

Anyone who's read my Encyclopedia piece on Arguello will know how high I hold him. So maybe this will finally put the hater and underrated jibes to rest
Agree Mayweather is hell for Arguello.

As for a boxer to beat Mayweather they are hard to come by. I'd say Napoles and Benitez are two.
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