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Old 03-13-2012, 04:44 PM   #42
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Default Re: How would a prime Charles have fared against Marciano?

Originally Posted by choklab View Post
This is neglagable.
in the 36 months after losing the title he was 7-4 against rated contenders the guys he lost to were split to johnson (no disgrace), walcott (close), layne (close) who he later beat and valdes (close).
charles wasnt shining against all the weakest guys during his peak. some of those guys were awful, he couldnt get up for them. its no disgrace. the charles who fought barone and beshore is the same guy who fought valdes and johnson.

the significance is charles wasnt putting out champion ship class performances all the time even then. prime charles perhaps fought far too often to guarantee that quality all the time.

these fights could have went either way and were very good contenders. many think charles won all those fights but the valdes one. against valdes charles was out of shape. one report said charles started too fast and shot his bolt after coming close to stopping nino early. nino mauled his way back in and used his weight to win by a shade in rounds only but was hurt in most rounds by a tired charles.

agreed. some of his best wins on film are the wallace, satterfeild, harrison fights.

I would say that was marciano. charles still fought like a great fighter the fist time at least.
I'm all for looking beyond the official results and I'm planning on watching Charles v Johnson (got sidetracked watching lewis v bruno).

However your reasoning seems poor.

He is definitely more inconsitent after being knocked out by walcott if we are to take the results at face value.

Before the ko loss this is the guys he beat, from LHW and above since 46 (this is when he returned to the ring and demonstrated his best form imo)

Moore, Marshall, Smith, Smith, Moore, Marshall, Fitzpatrick, Moore, Baroudi, Bivins, Bivins, Bivins, Sarlin, Fitzpatrick, Ray*, Ray, Sarvin, Baksi, Maxim, Walcott, Lesnevich, Valentino, Beshore, Louis, Barone, Oma, Walcott, Maxim, Walcott (L)

The ray loss I've read into and it seems to be bull****. Until being stopped by Jersey he was amazingly consistent and dominated two weight classes.

After this point he maintains great contender form, but not championship form.

he beat the following

Layne, Maxim, Kahut, Brion, Bivins, Bascom, Harrison, Layne, Wallace, Satterfield but lost to Walcott, Layne, Johnson, Valdes and Rocky (x2) that's essentially 10-6 in meanignful fights. That to me indicates a drop in quality.

Now, as I said, I'm looking into the other losses. His loss to Jersey was a picture perfect punch that any man below the CW limit would have been stopped by. The second loss to Jersey is fine because Jersey is a world class operator.

Losing to Layne, Johnson, Valdes isn't something I think prime Charles does. I can watch Charles v Johnson when I put aside enough time but I'll have to dig up info on the Valdes and Layne performances.

Taking the results at face value, a drop in quality looks certain to me. I will look deeper and if I'm happy they weren't genuine losses then I might rethink my stance but as it is, he seems to have slipped by the time he faced rocky.
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