Originally Posted by red cobra
Zale was at the near tail end of a gruelling, accomplished career..he had just come out of 5 years of service in WW2 to fight a young and uppity Graziano, who he still managed to destroy in 2 of 3 contests. It was past-prime Zale in all the bouts.
You miss my point about Griffith...sure tiger and Martinez were dissimilar, but the victory over Tiger for the crown in '66 beats any thing Martinez has done yet..and you yourself helped prove my second point..that Griffith fought a wide variety of styles.against far better opposition than Martinez has faced.and accomplished more against them in proving his worth as a great technician..adaptable to a variety of styles. Benvenuti would have beaten martinez IMO..let's not even talk about Monzon and Hagler
Martinez is a good fighter and apparently turns on a regrettably large number of Lounge inhabitants in ways that have nothing to do with his fighting abilities
..but he has not
established himself as great, or even a very good fighter in terms of quality opposition at all. I'll give him time to do that before I start singing his praises against the list previously mentioned..you should do the same.
Ability isn't all about who you've fought, it's about having ability. Griffith win over Tiger may be better than anything Martinez but it doesn't mean he'd beat him. It's arguably better than any of Ray Robinson's wins, but I certainly wouldn't pick Griffith over Robinson either.
To say Martinez is unproven is an ignorant statement. Pavlik and Williams are the top fighters today though and Martinez beat them and has beat them and dominated other decent wins that may have gone under your radar. Dzinderuk was 37-0, many peoples no1 at 154, completely dominated Santos who in turn beat Margarito. Benzema had just ko'd Karmazin who was another candidate for no1 154lber. Macklin just had a controversial loss to Sturm, who's top 3 at MW. Cintron an ex-champ he dominated to be robbed. You can't ask him to do much more than that past his own prime, waiting for years to get his shot.
You talk about Zale being past his best but Martinez is a 37yo and past prime now but still going on a 12 year undefeated run for most fair scorecards. I just don't think Zale is that great in all honesty, he doesn't impress me on film
You seem to rate fighters from your youth in the 60s and 70s disproportionally high RC. As for people in the Lounge rating Martinez, it's mainly for comedy value, I've been a fan of his since 2003 when he came to Britain to twice outclass our best LMW fighter in Richard Williams, I thought he'd become a world champ them but by 2008 I thought he had missed his chance to get a shot on the world stage