Originally Posted by donnie
Ive been involved in muay thai for over 10 years and the fact its becoming so 'Thai' in the uk (in terms of the ridiculous judging system and boring thai style is a reason im losing intrest)
AND i still think european muay thai (ramon dekker, bonjasky, gilbert ballentine, etc) is far more entertaining then the Thai's. The first 3 rounds the thais do sod all just tip tap shit, before unloading the final 3 rounds.
The dutch style is more entertaining to the general public
although i admit it is less effective then traditional muay thai.
Of those mentioned, harrision brothers and to a degree peter crooke are the only ones i rated. Kash and Izil where kickboxers (although i know kash fought a thai called 'superman' or something like that). The old school like ashley guishard, phil nurse, harrison brothers like mentioned, were much better then anything the UK has now
Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL
Yaca and Boran......I donīt have the knowledge you guys have on Muay Thai, so let me ask this.. do you think in Western Kickboxing you see more knockouts than in Muay Thai ??
Or it is just another myth ?
I think I see a bit more, BUT something must be said.....most of the times, the famous names in Kickboxing are HWs or guys heavier than the MT greats....so, itīs something to be considered when we talk about this...
Originally Posted by yaca you
their are far less ko's in muaythai than in boxing or kickboxing even. a KO artist like Anuwat only claims 41 ko's in 90 wins! Chamuekpet claims 15 ko's out of 200 wins. where a so called feather fisted willie pep had 65 ko's out of 229 wins.
Kickboxing is clearly different Fujiwara had 123 wins and 99 by ko! Zambidis has 85 kos out of 151 wins.
It isnt just weight Veeraphol was a ko machine at bantamweight in boxing 66 wins 46 ko's but in 150 Muaythai wins only 30 ko's.
Good to have a bit of unconventional MT debate on here, as you can see we’re pretty big on Thais round here. Your 1st sentence really shows how times have changed. When I first got into MT in 89 and up through much of the early and mid-nineties I thought the opposite, I dreamt the European scene was more like what I saw on in all those early video tape fights form Thailand!
It just wasn’t except for a few gyms most of which were based up North it was all just a bit too bouncing on toes throwing kicks and boxing type combos, without much thought to what some is actually supposed to do in the clinch. That’s one of the main reasons I went out to Thailand all those years ago was to improve my overall skills, but to really learn what went on in a clinch. Most people that have come to MT post the MMA explosion of the early 2000s don’t realise just how ill equipped most westerners who had never trained in Thailand were in terms of real MT and just how Kickboxing orientated most MT gyms were back in the 80s and 90s.
You mention Timmy Izli being a kickboxer and yes mostly he was, but I used to train in Cobra and spar with Tim and I’ll tell you his low kicks were all Thai! And he did fight Thais, I remember him fighting Thai ATG Jomhod (Tim who was tough as nails but got bashed to bits). Cobra was a good example of what was going on at the time, kickboxing and MT fusing as more and more people were slowly getting exposed to MT. I remember at Cobra you had a core group who did go out to Thailand and train, Rob Cox for example, and these guys helped infuse Thai technique and it was the same all over Europe, only America was lost almost in its entirety to above the waist kickboxing. Most of those names on that list of good Brit fighters above were mostly kickboxers before they were MT guys even the legendary Ronnie Green was a Kickboxer first. Not to knock the great man, but look a few pages back at his fight with Sombat, Ronnie had no idea what to do in the clinch and the truth is most European fighters never did until the explosion of the 2000s. All those guys were a product of the time; the only game changer was if you went out to Thailand or seeked out authentic Thais to train with in Europe.
This is all probably the roots of what everyone now calls “Dutch MT”, but that’s basically the way everyone fought back then who did MT, hard kick and punch combos with the odd barrage of slightly misunderstood knees. Again look at the early legendary Dutch guys Dekkers, Hippolyte etc. not really comfortable in the clinch. I admit I used to worship those guys and still do and yeah sure I love a good Dutch fighter that goes forward, but the games moved on in the West, people’s eyes are open post the 2000 boom in internet and MMA, people know what real MT is these days, especially with more guys like Buakaw, Seanchai and Yodsanklai fighting more often in the west before retirement age. I realise the general public want to see dramatic kicks and punching combos, but if you give them quality knees and elbows, I’m sure they’ll appreciate them just the same.
This leads me on to what Vic is asking about above in his posts about Kickboxing vs. MT KO ratios etc. May I suggest that what Donnie and most of the general public find exciting about Kickboxing K-1 style and “Dutch MT Kickboxing” is actually the amount of mismatching of fighters that goes on in the West.
Just think about it logically:
Thailand has in excess of 65,000 pro fighters who come into the sport to earn a living at a young age. The country has countless stadiums, promoters and gyms etc. It’s a well-oiled fight machine geared for gamblers. The UK has maybe say 60 pro MT fighters, Holland 150, France 150, Japan 200 who knows I’m guessing, and they come into the game as young men for a hobby, but you get my point right? In the West we just don’t have the depth in numbers of fighters in any scene to match make well, hence higher KO ratios with western fights than Thai fights cos they aren’t matched as evenly as they are in Thailand with guys that have basically conditioned themselves since kindergarten.
Higher KO ratios to many fight fans equals excitement, but not necessarily quality, badabing! What I’m trying to say is if any western country can produce 5 good fighters that can hold their own against a Thai that country have beaten the odds and well done to them.
One last thing, Donnie you've been around the MT game for 10 years, you of all people should know how hard it is to fight in reverse over 5 rounds like the Thais do. Most western fighters go hammer and tongs and have little left in the 4 and 5th even when they try to replicate the way Thais take the 1st two slow or as you said do that “tip tap shit”. The amount of conditioning and mastery of technique needed to put it on in the 4th and then turn it up in the 5th against an evenly matched and very technically proficient fighter (as all Thais are) is almost super human and that “tip tap shit” shit in the first two rounds is still thrown with intent and power and hurts.
Boy, that turned into a marathon, sorry to anyone still reading!