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Old 07-24-2012, 09:52 AM   #21
Legend X
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Default Re: How would Jack Dempsey do against Sonny Listons opposition?

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Ali was in a way open to left hooks because of low hands but no more so than Gene Tunney. Both used footwork and the right hand to control left hookers.
Tunney didn't face a prime Dempsey. He may well have been nailed very quick by a devastating left hook from a prime Dempsey.
Dempsey took 17 rounds to catch Tunney when they did fight. If it was prime v prime, this may have been achieved in 3 or 4 rounds, since Dempsey's foot speed had diminished considerably.

You seem to conveniently ignore the lackadaisical approach to the Cooper fight, the rematch shows Ali when focused deals with Cooper easily as he was for much of their first fight. The fight with Doug Jones was competitive but Jones was a top technician. You're picking holes in wins at the end of the day, which I suppose shows weaknesses but if anything 'Prime Dempsey' shows many more weaknesses
I'm not picking holes for the sake of it. I'm just saying I'm not convinced Clay of February 1964 was ready to be favoured against a prime Jack Dempsey.

The fight we're talking about anyway is against Liston a man many at the time thought was the best of all time. That performance was a great one and Clay rose to the occasion
I don't think it was that great. Ali moved very well but I don't think he did an awful lot to Liston. The fight finished prematurely. Liston just upped and quit. Clay's best round was the 3rd where, after hurting Liston he allowed Sonny to get the better of him in the later stages of the round. This showed his inexperienced more than anything. The 6th Clay looked good too, by default ... Sonny had slowed down to a snail's pace.

Anyway, Dempsey's a completely different fighter. It's a different style.

Dempsey threw a grand total of something like 2 jabs on film, no he didn't use it like Liston did he. I'd say never throwing a jab amounts to not having a jab
He threw a lot more than 2 jabs on film.

You won't see a left hook coming? If you box it's the easiest punch to see coming because of the wider distance travelled, you can also see them moving to their left to set it up which makes them open to the counter right on the way in if they don't jab their way in. Leading with the left hook while dispensing with the jab is fundamentally bad boxing form unless you're much quicker than your opponent
You've perhaps boxed guys who throw swings rather than hooks.
A well-delivered left hook is the shortest distance travelled of just about any punch. The fist travels very little distance - the body might turn considerably though, and the follow-through makes up most of the arc.
You know this too - because you watch boxing.

Tyson, Dempsey, Louis, Liston ... these guys often landed lead hooks or hooks off a feint.

Joe Frazier chipped away at every man he every fought with a steady stream of left hooks. It the punch was easy to avoid, Frazier would have been a ham-and-egger.

Anyway, the point is, DEMPSEY WAS QUICKER THAN LISTON, especially on his feet. He had a completely different style to Liston. A prime Dempsey would have been a far more difficult challenge that the Liston of 1964, for the '64 version of Clay.
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