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Old 07-24-2012, 02:57 PM   #25
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Default Re: How would Jack Dempsey do against Sonny Listons opposition?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Tunney didn't face a prime Dempsey. He may well have been nailed very quick by a devastating left hook from a prime Dempsey.
Dempsey took 17 rounds to catch Tunney when they did fight. If it was prime v prime, this may have been achieved in 3 or 4 rounds, since Dempsey's foot speed had diminished considerably.
Speculative in favour of Dempsey and the evidence just doesn't suggest that. Prime Miske took Dempsey to a draw, Meehan beat/drew him without Dempsey catching up to him, Brennan took him into the late rounds. None of these are as good as Tunney


Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
I'm not picking holes for the sake of it. I'm just saying I'm not convinced Clay of February 1964 was ready to be favoured against a prime Jack Dempsey.

I don't think it was that great. Ali moved very well but I don't think he did an awful lot to Liston. The fight finished prematurely. Liston just upped and quit. Clay's best round was the 3rd where, after hurting Liston he allowed Sonny to get the better of him in the later stages of the round. This showed his inexperienced more than anything. The 6th Clay looked good too, by default ... Sonny had slowed down to a snail's pace.
Offensively it was a great performance, Liston did quit but that doesn't take away from the beating Clay gave him earlier in the fight putting on a clinic. I think it was near prime Ali

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Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Anyway, Dempsey's a completely different fighter. It's a different style.
Indeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
He threw a lot more than 2 jabs on film.
What 3? Dempsey doesn't have a jab, he doesn't use it to control a fight, close distance or set up other punchers. He's the definition of not having a jab, even if he could perhaps throw 1 once in a blue moon, it’s irrelevant to how it would influence a fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
You've perhaps boxed guys who throw swings rather than hooks.
A well-delivered left hook is the shortest distance travelled of just about any punch. The fist travels very little distance - the body might turn considerably though, and the follow-through makes up most of the arc.
You know this too - because you watch boxing.

Tyson, Dempsey, Louis, Liston ... these guys often landed lead hooks or hooks off a feint.

Joe Frazier chipped away at every man he every fought with a steady stream of left hooks. It the punch was easy to avoid, Frazier would have been a ham-and-egger.
A hook on the inside/mid range, is a short punch, but you have to get inside, so if you don’t throw anything prior to that you’re either leading with wide hooks or walking into punching rage. Both make you easy to outbox by straight punches

You listed Frazier, but Frazier took punches to land punches, his style inherently with it’s flaws, having to walk through fire against both Ali and Quarry, being destroyed by Foreman

Dempsey too throughout his career was picked off from range and not just by Tunney but by lower tier types like Brennan and even Firpo smashed him on the way in. It seems Miske earned his draw with the same tactics

Tyson and Louis did use the jab much much more, but when Tyson led with hooks against Holyfield and Douglas it made him easier to counter punch and/or control with the jab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
Anyway, the point is, DEMPSEY WAS QUICKER THAN LISTON, especially on his feet. He had a completely different style to Liston. A prime Dempsey would have been a far more difficult challenge that the Liston of 1964, for the '64 version of Clay.
He was quicker on his feet, defensively he was pretty hittable. Ali is the much bigger stronger man too aswell as being the all time fastest with great lateral movement.

Nightmare style for Dempsey and frankly a difference in class
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