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Old 10-01-2012, 07:06 AM   #95
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Originally Posted by choklab View Post
What fighter would persevere with the forth consecutive jab when the last 3 missed?
Are you kidding? Every single fighter I can think of. I can't think of a single fighter who would miss three jabs then give up on the jab. The jab is the punch you throw. If the action brings the fighters closer then he might not use the jab, but chosing not to throw the jab because you've msised the jab? Doesn't happen.

Because I have boxed I can tell you its unlikely to happen and that this example is not one I used or need to find on film just to amuse you.
OK, well maybe you didn't box at quite the same level as these fighters? Examples of fighters missing with the jab and continuing to throw it are so available on YT that it is impossible NOT to find one.


Above is Oscar-Floyd. Oscar misses with the first three jabs he throws and persists with it, using it to dominate the first half of the fight.

If a fighter cannot risk the chance of a jab not landing as cleanly as he wants it to he throws less of them.
And yet Walcott, Moore and Charles all continued to throw jabs at Marciano and to score with them. Most of these men are outreached by Liston in terms of 6 or 8 inches.

If a punch wont work the way he wants he will try another punch more often.
You are presuming plenty here. First that Marciano can make Liston miss loads with the jab. Second, that even though a connect % for a good jab can be as low as 30%, meaning his missing 7/10 jabs is completely normal. So even if Rocky turns out to be as good as Ali in slipping the Liston jab - highly, highly debatable, arguably ridiculous - Liston will continue to throw jabs as he did in that fight.


Above is Liston-Ali. Listin misses jab after jab after jab, a % of as close to zero as you will ever see in a fight with two world-class jabbers. He hardly lands one. Still, he persists with it.

Even in the situation you bizarrely invisage, Liston will continue to throw the jab. We know because we have proof of it on film.

Whatever your own extensive experience as a boxer tells you.

Forget about the percentage I used for the sake of example
I'm tyring, believe me.

it boils down to this. Some fighters are hard to hit with a jab. Marciano was one of them.
Not really. He was harder to hit with the jab than your common garden fan believe i think, but he is not a fighter that was incredibly difficult to tag with that punch, like Ali or Armstrong was.


Above is round one of Charles-Maricano I. Charles throws 8 jabs, and lands either 6 or 7 of them. He's landing at a rate better than 80%. This is absolutely enormous.

Marciano did get harder to land the jab on as the fight progressed though. This was due to his exceptional engine and grit. But here he has an additional problem, one you seem absolutely determined to overlook, namely range.

The range is an additional ten inches. Take heed of the manuevers Rocky employs to close the distance. He would have to start those manueveres 10 inches further back. That's an horrific handicap, awful. No swarmer has ever overcome a handicap even rmotely like it. It's enormously difficult; an Everest of a problem. Liston has so much time to adjust to Rocky's moves, an extra half second in a sport where the fighters work in miliseconds.

It is a prohibitive physical disadvantage IMO.

If lots of people talk about Marciano having to take a pounding coming in from a punch that was hard to hit him with anyway I will assume its effectiveness is reduced considerably.
As we've seen, what you are assuming is contrary to what exists on film.

Ok. Answer me this, how effective and evident was Joe Louis’s excellent “walk you down” jab against Arturo Godoy the first time they fought?
It arguably won him a close fight. The mauling sections of the fight were about 50.50. Where Louis shaded this was when Godoy was on the outside wehre repeated feints helped to keep him at distance where he scored with flicking straights and the occasional right hand - Louis is always winning when it is on the outside.


As we can see above it is the only tool Louis has in keeping Godoy at range. Again and again he feints him back with it. In the first action you can see Louis land two jabs as Godoy bobs in.

God knows what havoc he would have wrought with it had he and extra 9 inches to work with. Certainly he would have had Godoy under much firmer control.

Regardless, Joe's eventual solution was the uppercut. Godoy had to take such pains to get inside that much shorter jab that he had to sell himself to that punch.

Against Liston, always ready with the upercut and quick to adjust, this is suicide.
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