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Old 10-01-2012, 03:15 PM   #105
choklab
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Default Re: Rocky Marciano vs. Sonny Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Liston will continue to throw the jab. We know because we have proof of it on film.
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The example you use Liston continues to throw against a retreating opponent he cannot reach. It is not the same as continuing to throw it against a low crowding mauler who is restricting the space Liston needs to really use all that leverage the way he does best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Not really. He was harder to hit with the jab than your common garden fan believe i think, but he is not a fighter that was incredibly difficult to tag with that punch, like Ali or Armstrong was..
Not impossible to reach with a jab at all just difficult to land cleanly against. I think you will agree a clean punch makes more impression than a grazing punch?
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post

Above is round one of Charles-Marciano I. Charles throws 8 jabs, and lands either 6 or 7 of them. He's landing at a rate better than 80%. This is absolutely enormous.
Marciano did get harder to land the jab on as the fight progressed though. This was due to his exceptional engine and grit..
I disagree with this ratio. I think Charles was feinting jabs he turned into hooks most of the time. Charles extended his left to line up a right to the heart (that landed) but it was not a piston jab knocking Marciano’s head up at all. Charles did land 2 good clean jabs but the rest grazed Rocky if they landed at all. The punches Charles landed were shorter hooks and body shots that I think he threw more of anyway. Even though this was a round Charles won big he did not land the majority of the real jabs he threw IMO. But you are entitled to your take on the round.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
The range is an additional ten inches. Take heed of the manoeuvres Rocky employs to close the distance. He would have to start those manoeuvres 10 inches further back..
This is a good point. I feel though that because Liston advances he is not positioned the extra ten inches further away for any real amount of time, he is aiming quite low against a fighter used to sliding in underneath behind a shield of elbows and shoulders. I just don’t see the long shots counting as much as you do. It is an inside fight much like the first Joe Louis vs. Arturo Godoy fight was.
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
It arguably won him a close fight. The mauling sections of the fight were about 50.50. Where Louis shaded this was when Godoy was on the outside where repeated feints helped to keep him at distance where he scored with flicking straights and the occasional right hand - Louis is always winning when it is on the outside..
No it did not. Because Louis was unable to utilise the room to land his jab as well against more stand up fighters it totally evened up the fight. You can count on one hand how many clean super jabs (that Louis was famous for) that he landed in the 15 rounds! Usually Louis landed and threw more jabs in one round against almost anyone else than he did in 15 against gody. Why? Because Godoy was so god awful awkward but still inferior in every way to Marciano. Louis did adapt by their second match but he was a better fighter than Liston anyway.
 
 
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post

As we can see above it is the only tool Louis has in keeping Godoy at range. Again and again he feints him back with it. In the first action you can see Louis land two jabs.
as Godoy bobs in.
But Louis is forced to adapt his jab into a range finder to work off, he begins to paw with it because there is no room and the height he needs to lower it to prevents the leverage he needs for it to be a big punch. Godoy reduces the Louis jab effectively.
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
God knows what havoc he would have wrought with it had he and extra 9 inches to work with. Certainly he would have had Godoy under much firmer control. .
Funnily enough I think Liston takes Godoy too but he is no Marciano.
 
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