Originally Posted by choklab
I think you are correct in that it would be a harder closer fight than people think. Where I disagree is the effectiveness with the jab. In one round Albert westphal ( a D lister at best) who was even 4 inches shorter than Marciano slipped 60% of Listons jabs. Now, if a honest, overmatched non-world class opponent with that kind of disadvantage has that kind of ratio against the Liston jab what will it say about how Marciano might fare against the jab?
Joe Louisís success with the jab against Rocky is overblown. For two rounds Louis was so mauled he had no room for his usual strong jab so he was forced to adapted it into a flicking defensive jab to try and find space. He did land but he did not find the space to land anything off it. Even then it worked only for 2 rounds out of 8 (rounds 4 and 5) and this was only once Marciano bizarrely decided to stalk and counter. In round 3 he was taking as many punches back as he was landing even with those tactics.
Like you say Liston can compete inside as effectively without relying on the jab, I just think he would find it harder than anything he ever had to cope with in real life.
I agree with this.....this is a tough hard fought fight for both men. Rocky is one of my favorite fighters and that may influence my opinion but in reality it is the substance and intelligence of the man and the fact that he was a beast and truly great fighter that makes me love him. Marciano is a hard man for anyone to beat, never-mind the statement of some that he would be blown out like the 5"7 Wesphal that so many on ESB have been repeating, Harry Matthews was a far better fighter than Westphal and look at what was done to him.
I can see Suzie loving Sonny like I love Walcott and at least Suzie said it would be a tough fight but some of these guys are looking at Marciano and not seeing the fighter and man that he was. Some of them are very indignant if you have a difference of opinion.
I was good friends with some in the Patterson family, so I have a lot of insight into Sonny Liston and Floyds mindset at the time of their fights....Floyd came out of it a better man but it took some time for him to digest what caused him to fail and the fear.....Floyd really felt he had the style to beat Ali and felt if he had not had the injury he would have beaten Ali, but he knew guys like Liston and Marciano, with the power and pressure were all wrong for him....but he also felt he was at a mental low for the Liston fights and was admittedly intimidated ....I mean Patterson was the best fighter Liston fought with Eddie Machen next, the rest are guys that were beaten or KO'd by other guys besides Liston who were 180-185lbs... DeJohn may have been the best puncher Liston faced but was also dropped and KO'd and was very easy to hit, other than that we have Williams and I am not impressed with his credentials against quality opponents....I have my doubts how well Sonny would do against a quality puncher
Well, I am tired of beating a dead horse and I am done with this subject.....but Choklab you brought up some very good points and gave a respectable analysis of your opinion despite the onslaught by the usually Marciano under miners