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Old 10-12-2012, 06:13 PM   #40
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Default Re: sonny liston vs jack johnson.....

Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
You and I have been over this time and again.

Johnson tired and let Hart do the leading according to all accounts. Hart's aggression definitely displeased Johnson in what was a VERY important fight for him. If he had a Sunday shot, that was the time to use it. And he would have been fighting for the title much earlier.

In the O'Brien affair, you are very selective in choice of source materials. I tend to quote the NYT rendition because it contains the details we see repeated in other articles. O'Brien was jabbing Johnson silly and even groggy a few times, reddening his face and frustrating him. You cite other sources, if I remember correctly. Johnson hurt O'Brien once but could not follow up. Other fighters, some great and some not and almost all smaller than Johnson, had stopped O'Brien in under 6. Ketchel turned the trick in 3 in his next fight, Langford not long after that. Also, O'Brien was very near the end of his long career and should have been ripe for the picking.

In the Battling Jim fight, there are those who claim Johnson's arm was broken early but most say it happened right at the end. He was simply being schooled by a more motivated, aggressive fighter. Again, the NYT article states the crowd booed the decision lustily.

I am looking forward to Adam's book on Johnson to see which sources he endorses. It should be good reading and perhaps he can find some light amidst the murky, and sometimes contradictory, source materials.

I'm not aware we have discussed the O Brien fight in any detail,perhaps my age is catching up with me?
I haven't read anywhere that O Brien had Johnson groggy at any time ,and to be frank, I would dismiss it out of hand had I done so.

I've only cited the Box rec sources , because to be honest, I give little importance to the affair ,neither do Ward ,or Roberts, biographers of Johnson.
Adam may differ, we shall have to wait and see. accounyts of the Johnson v Johnson fight detail the champion abruptly changing his tactics,in the second or third round ,[I'm speaking off the top of my head ,] and then sparingly using one arm.This would be consistant with his claim of when the break occurred.
I've also read an account that states Battling JIm was out on his feet at the end,and one that says the champion was all in at the end.
Again it's pay your money and take your choice.
You appear to take always the negative view of Jack Johnson, thats your prerogative.

Newspapers that were represented RINGSIDE,[ not those relying on AP reports,] state that the crowd booed the fight from around the halfway mark,because of the lack of effective action , not because NOT they disagreed with the decision.The again if you have a penchant for interpreting the fight sof Johnson in a certain manner ,you can put what spin you like on it.
No one is going to shoot you for it. Mendoza once asserted that Johnson was stripped of his title by the French Boxing Authorities because of this fight, its easy to say, even though its total bulll****.

O Brien was just two months older than Johnson ,and while he certainly had more ,mileage on his clock , he was also in better fighting shape than Johnson was for their fight.

To my knowledge, no one has suggested that Johnson was a super power hitter, so I'm a little mystified why you are pursuing this line.
At the end of the day its all " so whattish," isn't it?
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