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Old 11-16-2012, 04:39 PM   #41
Lord Tywin
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
You obviously are lacking in experience of historical research. I warned you before about first-hand accounts not being the same thing as primary sources. First-hand accounts tend to differ in details, they say one thing, then they say a different thing. He repeated it twice that he was offered both things, and he explains it further in the later part of the same chapter. Why would he fictionalize it and then try to explain in detail why he thought they offered him both the money and the title.

I said YOU can't use Fox's testimony as evidence. He admitted he didn't know about the fix until he saw the newspaper headlines the next day, and he got no confirmation of a fix from anyone who could be involved in it.

An injury is a pretty minor detail in the general scheme. It doesn't make an argument fundamentally flawed, when I base my arguments mostly on primary sources from 1947-1948 and point out that the 1960 investigation was flawed in the way it was conducted. Pick somebody else to take on with such weak arguments.

Fox admitted he didn't know what Jake was trying to do. When you have a spleen injury and you have just been punched to the body hard, the pain sometimes gets too much, you start a move and then you decide to abandon the idea. Although not the same kind of injuries as that, but it happened to me many times, you think to do something, but the muscle injury gets in the way and you drop your hands with a grimace of pain. A perfect explanation why Jake wasn't punching back as often as he was used to.

Silvani said his opinion, he had no information either, whether it was a fix or not. How would he know if he weren't involved with mafia before that, whether it was right or not. All he could do was his fighter not doing his best. I'm pretty sure he's being kind to Jake though, as he could not have no knowledge about the injury, it happened a month before the Fox bout, and Silvani was his trainer and was with his in the gym, and perfectly knew Jake wasn't right. But let's leave the old man alone.

Well, tell me then, which next-day and the following days reports about the investigation in 1947 have you read? If I only had access to wire reports, in your opinion, you must be a wealth of knowledge yourself.
This coming from a guy who has now been proven wrong twice in one day vis a vis his infallible sources.

Like I said about denial...

Youve said:

"The report of the fight contradicts LaMotta's words that he was not punching back."

Wrong, you even refuted your own statement in your next post: "Having an injury certainly explains relative lack of LaMotta's rushing/punching style a lot better than a fix."

"LaMotta's brother up until now (when there's no danger whatsoever of a revenge from the mafia) still hasn't confirmed that he arranged a fix."

Wrong, You obviously didnt even know Joey had been dead 21 years.

"Give me exact date and newspaper in June 1960 where the injury is mentioned?"

Dont pretend you werent trying to insinuate that I had falsified that. Otherwise why even bring it up. You obviously had no knowledge it was mentioned at the hearing. Especially after you once again questioned it:

"He discusses it during the hearing in June 1960? Do you have a link?"

Proven wrong once again.

"The odds changed to 3-to-1, wow, mafia won a lot of money by betting on the favorite?"

Shows an obvious lack of understanding of how betting works.

"LaMotta was a ranked middleweight. By beating him Fox didn't gain much. He wasn't about to lose his rankings or be denied another chance with the champion."

Wrong, as stated above on how the bout was promoted.

"LaMotta had a reputation, but not a very big one at the time, not big enough, and not at light heavyweight, to be worth an offer of $100,000 to throw a fight."


Billy Fox didn't accept such a thing.


"He admitted he didn't know about the fix until he saw the newspaper headlines the next day, and he got no confirmation of a fix from anyone who could be involved in it."

Except for the fact that he admitted that Palermo was trying to fix the fight in his favor before hand. It doesnt take a genius or a big leap to realize that where there is smoke there is fire.
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