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Old 11-18-2012, 04:54 AM   #36
mcvey
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
If you throw any possible excuses for Johnson losing pre 1905 ( Choysnki, Klondike, and Griffin ), he still has too many of them, to project a win over a prime Jeffries.


Johnson could not tame Marvin Hart in 1905. Major red flag. This was a high stakes match with the winner having a good chance to fight Jeffries next. Hart won. Jeffries said he would fight Hart if the public interest was there. It was not. Jeffries was above Hart on the level that Wlad or Vitlai is above anyone else today.

In 1909 Johnson was knocked down by a super middle in Ketchel. Once again in 1909 in a 4 round exhibition match, GunBoat Smith, who was close enough in size to Johnson had Johnson down and dazed to the point where Johnson's own manager halted the fight. And then another super middle in Jack O'Brien exposed Johnson by out boxing ( but not out slugging him ) in a 6 round mix opinion match.

In these three matches meetings ( Ketchel, Smith, and O'Brien ), Johnson was in fact exposed. And he was in his absolute prime in 1909. Call the GunBoat Smith meeting less significant because it wasn't an official match. I'll agree. But you have to agree with me that GunBoat who was not in the class of Jeffries as a hitter, made lil' Arthur see stars. If chins are best tested when they are hit, we know when happened here.


Of coruse Johnson at best is viewed as lucky to have survived the Jim Battling Johnson match in 1913 according to the NY times report, and on film he had very close match with a Moran.

If you saw Johnson's top 12 fighters, and throw out the washed up Jeffries he fought, Johnson thinks the guys Jeffries beat were better than the ones he beat.


As Champion, Johnson never fought or defeated prime versions of McVey, Jeanette, or Langford, so we have to seriously look at his struggles with tier two level contenders.

If you saw Johnson's top 12 fighters, and throw out the washed up Jeffries he fought, Johnson thinks the guys Jeffries beat were better than the ones he beat.

To clear up a misconception, Jeffries never said in context that he could not beat Johnson. He said if he was younger, he would have won.

Old, in active for 5 years, fighting in the desert ( never benefits the older fighter ), and having to re-shape his body from 300+ to 225, Jeffries won two rounds, and had a few other close ones before gassing out in the 13.
Had each man meet in their primes, I would pick Jeffries to win via TKO.



Jeffries stated publicly and in print ,that should Johnson beat Hart he would NOT fight him.

Read the link.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/fulton.html


The consensus was that Johnson won the first 10 rounds of the Hart fight which, as it was a 20 rounder means that he should have received no worse than a draw. George Siler the premier referee of the time watched it from ringside he called Creggains verdict for for Hart "a very strange decision" .

Here is a report of the fight.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/fulton.html




You keep regurgitating the fact that Gunboat Smith in his own words "put Johnson nearly through the ropes", in a sparring session .

Gunboat Smith was a big puncher, bigger than Jeffries I should think. Johnson's manager did NOT" halt the fight ", there WAS NO FIGHT IT WAS A SPARRING SESSION .

What the hell being stunned or knocked down by a sparring partner means in evaluating a fighters chances against another fighter escapes me entirely .

Toxie Hall dropped Rocky Marciano flat on his butt with a left hook that dazed Marciano, and Charley Goldman halted the sparring for the day.

Light hitting Jim Corbett is reputed to have kod Jeffries in sparring ,and ringside primary sourced reports of their first fight state he had Jeffries stunned a couple of times in their first fight .

Tyson was dropped by Page among others.


Vitali Klitschko who has a good chin was dropped twice in sparring in 2005 , in short,it means jack shit.

The knockdown of Johnson by Ketchel looks extremely iffy to me, Johnson appears to be falling before the punch connects.

In the first Klondike fight, Johnson is described by George Siler as being half starved he went down from a body shot which was what happened when Simon kod Walcott ,same circumstances, a half starved fighter succumbed to a body attack.

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...e/115/mode/1up


Johnson did not train for O Brien, he could not lose, a six rds no dec against a light hitter?

You keep repeating how exposed he was, there are many, many conflicting versions of that inconsequential 6 rounder.

Jeffries did not weigh over 300lbs, and he had over 18months to get in shape.

When he came back from Carlsbad in October 1909 he was already down to fighting weight ,thats 9 months before the fight. Jeffries did NOT say he would have beaten Johnson in his prime,in his very first interview after being thrashed by Johnson he said this.

http://www.boxinggyms.com/news/jeffr...ohnson1910.htm


Thats three" innacuracies "corrected,[I'm feeling charitable so I'll call them innacuracies, instead of what they really are ,deliberate lies].


Any objective observer [not you of course], evaluating Johnson's draw against Jim Johnson would factor in that the champion broke his left arm early in that fight yet still salvaged a draw.

They might also factor in that Jim Johnson subsequently drew with Langford twice ,and Jeannette twice and beat Jeannette once, beat and drew with Jeff Clark and ko d Pelkey, none of these opponents were boxing with a broken arm as a handicap ,nor had they been out of the ring for over a year and a half , were nearly 36 years old and 22lbs over weight.

Last edited by mcvey; 11-18-2012 at 07:40 AM.
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