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Old 11-18-2012, 07:02 PM   #43
edward morbius
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Default Re: Joe Louis's resume is very poor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I thought he was robbed against Sharkey.
Steve Hamas was a smart boxer.




But if people are holding Walcott up as some sort of slick and skillful boxer with KO power who would run rings around Baer and/or Schmeling, then it needs to be pointed out that didn't dominate against men like Rex Layne and Elmer Ray, who weren't super skillful themselves.




Louis was old and overweight. He was better in 1936.



Hamas was a clever boxer, the equal of Tommy Loughran in a 4-fight series, and with wins over other contenders. Equal with Lee Ramage in a 3-fight series, another lauded 'clever' boxer.
Schmeling dominated Hamas utterly in the rematch.
I think Rex Layne was crude by comparison with Hamas.

If the claim is being made is that Walcott would easily dominate the "crude" Max Baer, I look to where Walcott easily dominated such types of fighter. I can't find any examples to back that up.
Walcott gets overrated on the 'beauty' of some of his moves, his performances in their entirety don't back it up.

"Louis was old and overweight"

Well, he was old. He was in superb shape, though. Off the film, he didn't carry an ounce of fat.

"He was better in 1936"

Probably. He was not taking his opponent lightly in 1948, though.

"Walcott would easily dominate Baer"

I did go too far in using the word easily. But I still think Walcott and Charles would be favored to outbox Baer.

"Where did Walcott beat a Baer type fighter"

He beat a lot of men as big or nearly as big as Baer (Baksi, Murray, Ten Hoff, Tandberg) and at least Murray had a punch. There aren't many Baer type fighters around at any time, but Walcott handled big men often, and Schmeling didn't. I think the only plus 200 lb of any quality Schmeling defeated was Ben Foord.

"Steve Hamas"

The only film I have seen of Hamas is his awful defeat in the second Schmeling fight. He doesn't look good or particularly clever. He doesn't really show much. He has no foot movement, doesn't seem to have much of a left (Schmeling easily outjabs him), and basically shows very little to me. Hamas did defeat Loughran (who lost to Joe Sekyra, King Levinsky, Stanley Poreda, Johnny Risko (2), Primo Carnera, Walter Neusel, and Jose Carattali-as well as twice to Hamas-between 1931 and 1934) but beating Loughran was done quite often.

This is Hamas' record from 1933 to 1935

Lee Ramage-------D 10
Tommy Loughran--L 10
Charley Massera---D 10
Benny Miller-------KO 4
Lee Ramage-------SD 10
Max Schmeling----UD 12
Art Lasky---------SD 10
Max Schmeling----KO by 9

Other than the setup Miller, his most decisive victory was over Schmeling. After seeing their second fight, I don't understand.

I stick with saying that losing to Hamas is every bit as bad as losing to Ray or Layne. I would pick Layne over Hamas but who knows.

"Sharkey"

I don't think Schmeling was robbed. It was a close fight and he ate jabs all night.

Bottom line--all these champions--Schmeling, Baer, Sharkey, Walcott--were very erratic. Schmeling's win over Louis is the best any of them had, but otherwise he was perhaps the least impressive. I think one could make a good case for any of them being overrated if you focus on bad performances, or underrated if you focus on good performances.

Last edited by edward morbius; 11-18-2012 at 07:48 PM.
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