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Old 11-23-2012, 10:19 AM   #240
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Default Re: Kessler and Froch fans are pathetic!!

Originally Posted by MAJR View Post
I'm sorry but weren't you the one who went off on some rant about me being a "butthurt fanboy" because I happened to say that I thought it hypocritical that Ward's fans were promoting the idea that you have to take the title from the champ's turf when he never did and that I saw no reason why a rematch could not take place somewhere other than America?
Undue ferocity in you response, completely diregarding my opinion because it happened not to agree with yours. And before you say you didn't I will remind you that finished that post by saying "Well keep dreaming pal, and I wonder if the sky is blue in the dream world that you live in....." and if that's not high-handed dismissal then I dont know what is.
Now that I know you are sensitive, I will tone down the ferocity in my responses and remove the high handed dismissals.

Point out where I have ever said Ward has to travel, point out where I have ever said that staying in America in detrimental to Ward's career or that I dont respect his accomplishment because he's never fought abroad. You wont be able to, because I've never said that.

The closest you will come to it is a post a while back where I said that it might be a legitimate criticism of him for not travelling in the Super Six when everyone else had to, but you'll note that even then I did not say anything about not travelling lessening Ward's legacy, or the level of respect he's due or whatever

All I have said is that I would like to see him travel and I do not understand why others dont - particularly those who think him vastly superior to everyone else in that division.
I never accused you of saying anything like that! All I asked is why the criticism of Ward and not Mayweather or DLH when he was still active. I then gave my opinion as to why Ward was criticized (butthurt fans). I don't see what the real difference or glaring need to see this man fight outside the US is. Especially because as long as I can remember nobody was clamoring for DLH or Floyd to do the same. I'm asking why now and why Ward?

So your argument in this bit is what? That Froch and Kessler fans shouldn't be calling for a rematch if they think their fighter is capable of winning? That neither Forch or Kessler should ever think of fighting Ward again if they think they can do better?

Froch and Kessler fans can call for whatever their hearts desire. I will point out that every guy who loses thinks he can do better the second time around
and if you are interested in seeing a re-match, then good for you. You obviously see a purpose for it where as I do not. We are each entitled to that, it is what it is.

When Hatton lost to Pac he was through. He was beaten mentally and physically and retired. This is completely different. Ward clearly beat Kessler and Froch, he did so with relative ease, but both think they can do better against him and working towards rematch, and I sorry but I do not have a high level of respect for someone who would dismiss their efforts to reach the top and fight the best guy in the division, especially if that guy had beaten them already. They're not just packing their bags and giving up, they're trying to recover, to prove themselves worthy of a shot again and to try and avenge their losses. That's admirable to me regardless of whether its a forelorn hope or not.
Ok, so do you want to see Martinez-Chavez jr 2 in Mexico? I'm sure Jr thinks he can do better than winning 30 seconds of a 12 round fight. Cotto-Mayweather 2 in PR? I could go on and on and on. Those two fights were more high profile than either fight Ward had with Froch and Kessler, yet nobody is wetting their pants for a re-match of the aforementioned, but yet they want to see Ward travel to fight guys he beat handily a second time. It just makes no sense to me. People want what they want, that's fine, it still doesn't make sense. Fights people should be clamoring for like Pac-Bradley aren't being mentioned but EVERYONE wants to see Ward fight Froch or Kessler again. IDK, whatever, my head hurts...

And who's to say a second fight wouldn't go differently. Boxing history is full of examples of fights turning out completely different from the way people expect them to - the Ward/Kessler for instance. You dont know how the fight's going to go until the bell rings. Most would expect Ward to beat Froch or Kessler now, but that doesn't mean a fight against one of them would be pointless if they earnt it through beating the other top competitors in the division.
Well you can say a re-match may go differently about any fight right? Maybe in a re-match Cotto knocks Floyd out. Maybe Bradley beats Pac definitively the second time around. You are right nobody knows how a second fight with Kessler of Froch would turn out, however the vast majority of folks here still pick Ward to win and let's say he does, do you want a third fight if either guy works up through the ranks again? If Ward were to lose, then you have the option for a rubber match if both agree. I just don't see any evidence from either fight that makes me believe the outcome in a different venue would be any different. None at all. If the fights were close, I'd be all for a re-match, like I am with all close competitive fights. Does that mean Froch/Kessler and their fans can't want another go at Ward? Of course not, all I have been saying is I as an individual A) Have no desire to see what would most likely be a replay of the first fight. B) Do not feel like Ward needs to travel to silence critics or for his legacy or anything other than his own desire to do so. Simply! No more or less, you obviously feel otherwise and god bless you for it.

Well, first, you see no call for Froch/Dirrell2 because Dirrell's disappeared. When was the last time he fought? What, exactly, has he been doing for the last three years? Nothing. He might deserve a rematch against Froch but he can't get that if he's pretty much retired. And if he were an active fighter you probably would see calls for Froch to come fight him in Michigan.
I was just saying as far as a re-match I felt was actually warranted because of the dubious circumstances in the first fight, I brought up Dirrell. Hell, I can't stand Amir Khan but I was right on board for a second fight with Petersen until he failed the drug test. You are right again in that Dirrell is M.IA. ,but I doubt if he were active people would be whining about Froch fighting him in Michigan like folks are doing about Ward going across the pond.

Secondly, I'm not calling for Ward to fight Froch in England or Kessler in Denmark out of some ridiculous notion of his wins not being legitimate enough in America. All I have said on the matter is that I fail to see how an argument that fighting a legitimate challenger who has earnt a shot at him in that challengers own country would be pointless to Ward, where Ward would gain no benefit from beating that fighter in that fighters country.
Ok, so we are saying the opposite. I fail to see how fighting a guy in his country that you have already beat convincingly is going to prove anymore than when it was done the first time. The only hope is that Ward may lose the second time around. It's more than possible of course, but not very likely, based on the evidence we all have to go off of!!!

Nor have I said that Ward's wins weren't legitmate or that he isn't better than Kessler or Froch, but I fail to see how a rematch against Froch or Kessler would be dismissed as pointless if either of them worked hard enough and beat enough credible fighters to earn that shot.
Again, I never said you didn't see those wins as legit. I personally would rather see Ward take on a new challenger(s) than fight guys who weren't overly competitive the first time around, regardless if they worked their way back into the "mix" or not.Again, EVERY fighter thinks he can do better the second time around, or the third, or the forth or the fifth......

All I have seen from Ward fans is irate denial of any justification whatsoever for any potential fight he could ever have outside the US. This may be a backlash against the considerable criticism their fighter has recieved for fighting the majority of his fights in California but even so the level of ferocity put into denying reason why he could benefit from travelling abroad for a fight is starting to get as bad as that displayed by the people who criticise him for not travelling.
I just don't see why it matters soooo much to soooo many people why this PARTICULAR individual, who happens to be AMERICAN fights in the USA. People give Floyd grief for everything under the sun, but not for being a stay at home fighter. Like I said DLH never traveled, RJJ didn't when he was relevant and on and on and on. It just seems like you have a guy come along and beat 3 Euro fighters so now we all want to see him do it all over again abroad. Ward would make a ton of money fighting overseas I'm sure, no denying that, but so would Floyd, so would have Oscar, etc, etc... Ward is supposed to be soooo boring so I don't see how his fan base overseas would increase. Other than financially what real tangible benefit is their for Ward to fight overseas? I'm not against it at all, he can do whatever the **** he wants to do, it's him getting punched in the head not me. Silencing critics or trying to validate the outcomes of the first encounter is ridiculous if you ask me, because there will always be critics no matter what. Ray Robinson had critics, that just comes with the territory!! I just don't know what fan says "I like John Doe, he's a great fighter, but I want to see him travel the world". "I like other fighters too, but I only want to see John Doe travel". It is what it is I guess...
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