Originally Posted by SuperHut
"About me being ignorant and not willing to learn, well I was watching the 1st UFCs at the time just out of fascination but wasn't a serious follower as I've aleways been a Muay Thai purist. In the late 80s I owned the Tao of JKD which I found intersting and had a signed copy of JKD Kickboxing by Chris Kent and that book was utter shite. The Tao of JKD I found interesting, but you mention him breaking down MT, but I only remeber two small paragraphs mentionng how effetive the MT low kick was and how the dynamics where similar to western boxing. I guess he learnt set of the Big Boss."
- Lee produced more than just the Tao of JKD. It wasn't until about 12 years ago though, that more of his notes were released. His thoughts on MT were spot on. That it was a "sport", made good use of elbows and knees, was actually applied in real time, but lacked effective grappling and because it was a sport, didn't train or prepare for getting kicked in the nuts, eye gouges and was vulnerable to getting ears bitten off and how Tong Po could be easily controlled by simply grabbing his pony tail. Kind of like what Royce did to Kimo at UFC 3.
His notes on MT basically concluded that MT was vulnerable to the most basic and primal attacks and didn't prepare for them despite excelling in other areas of unarmed fighting.
"About Muay Thai being a watered down version of Krabi Krabong, where did you get that shit from?"
- I got that "shit" from a friend who traveled to the Buddhai Sawan institute in Thailand to study Muay Thai who was then introduced to Krabi Krabong while at the academy.
"They are the same thing as is so called "Muay Boran", what people who know **** all about Muay Thai call "a watered down from" is actually a stripped down form emphasising the common strands of varying regional styles leaving the most effective weapons in their bare form to create a ring sport."
- by watered down, I meant that Krabi Krabong was used on the battlefield where swords and such were involved and there were no referees and people got kicked in the ribs while getting their necks slashed and their heads cut off.
"You still haven't proved to me Bruce Lee ever had a meaningful fight?"
- and I don't think I can prove it. All I can go by is the eye witness accounts from the people who were there to see Lee in a real scrap and how his notes on real fighting back up that he knew what the **** he was talking about.
I also heard that the best Gracie was Rolls, but despite the fact that the only video available of him makes him look like an amateur, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since he was the guy who introduced the triangle choke to the rest of the family when he went off on his own and started reading judo books and seeking knowledge outside of the family.
"by the way what business does the JKD academy have teaching MT?????"
- Guy named Chai Sirisute certified them to teach Muay Thai. Last time I checked, JKD wasn't really a style, but more of a philosophy that encourages people to use what works for them. So I guess the JKD guys figured out that MT has it's place in fighting, as long as you're not ignorant to it's limitations.
And remember... I'm the guy who posted the list of the milestone MMA fighters that gave you a hard on. Any time you want more lessons, feel free to ask and I will teach you for free. Only condition is that you don't whine if I mention JKD.
Originally Posted by SuperHut
As for your thoughts on the side kick... I lost interest when you mentioned something about how you allow the MT community decide for you, the value of the side kick.
We all saw Cung Le use the side kick against Frank Shamrock. That was a brilliant fight and something I recommend you study.
Don't get me wrong though. I'm not going to treat Frank as though he is some kind of Muay Thai Master who should have had answers to CUng Le's sidekick, but I will say that I was impressed with Le in that his primary tool against Frank was the side kick, and that Frank one day decided to enter K1 and his first fight ended in the opening seconds after throwing a thai kick that broke his opponents bones upon impact.
This all seems to have got out of control...... again. Seems to always happen once Bruce gets involved, divisive character isn’t he!
Let’s back up a bit and remember all I did was question his record as a fighter as he's been put above tried & tested fighters with proven records, remember it’s fight forum I'm aloud to disagree. I did state pretty early on that his impact on the development of Martial Arts and how they are perceived in the wider world in general was hugely important and demands respect, as I’ve stated in many threads before I’m a Bruce fan.
I have no problem with differing opinions, but I can’t really get where you’re coming from or if you’re even for real, but your tone is condescending and your attempt to belittle me was as uncalled for as it was arrogant and I hate arrogance, it makes my blood boil. But, in the interests of forum harmony, cos this MMA forum is a pretty mature close knit place, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and extend an olive branch. We both obviously passionate about combat sports, but I think come from two different ends of the spectrum. You seem to value traditional martial arts where reputation is everything whilst I come from the side where reputation counts for nothing, it’s purely down to what you can do in or out the ring no matter who you are, in other words a “put up or shut up” attitude to fighting.
You’re very good at quoting other people whether it is out of a book or a friend, where are you in your posts? You asked me to get technical in terms of how an equal weight MT guy does the business on Bruce, so I point you to a previous post I wrote on how to negate the side kick a favoured weapon for Bruce, but instead of reading it and giving a technical counter argument you blow it off by saying you didn’t even read it? What is it you want? Cos as other posters on this forum know I’m only too happy to get technical in an MT context (time permitting of course!).
A couple of things I’ll bat back your way, I don’t doubt the authentic technique of the Buddhai Suwan school, but having lived in Thailand for over a decade I’m very aware of just how super nationalistic the Thais are and what a distorted view of their own history they have. This is country doesn’t acknowledge most of what is modern day Thailand was for over 500 years actually Khmer territory in other words Cambodian, they have total denial over it. I can only imagine what the touristy “Money School” of the Buddai Sawan institute are putting into starry eyed foreigner’s brains!
And since when was Chai Sirisute a bastion of Muay Thai greatness, the guys basically unknown in Thailand and born of the Bangkok elite FFS, his dad was a Bangkok lawyer. No being sold to a gym at age 6 for him and spending the next 20 years of his life separated from his family as cattle in the giant meat market of the BKK fight scene! I don’t doubt he was a competent practitioner and can teach a bit but dare I suggest he saw a good opportunity coming his way? I quote from his website: “The organization he founded, the Thai Boxing Association of the U.S.A. now has more than 70 branches in the U.S. and has gained representation in almost every U.S. state. It has also expanded to 15 countries around the world.
Hmmmmmm, money talks……I tend to always give Thais the benefit of the doubt and it’s no doubt it’s only good thing to spread the Muay Thai word, but really who is he to be so powerful in the American MT world? Without being too disrespectful to the guy, who is probably only guilty of filling a void at the time, maybe it’s because of guys like him that the American Muay Thai scene has surprisingly been so bereft of talent over the last 30 years and has struggled to produce a fighter capable of holding his own with a quality Thai until very very recently? Some very bizarre unauthentic training techniques in his own HL on his website that are not MT at all, bobbing and weaving!?!?!? That’s an MT 101 no no!
The other thing is, since when was Frank Shamrock been a credible example of even a mediocre Muay Thai fighter? Anyway, meant in good humour please feel free to “educate” me as much as you want and I gotta admit I found the Tong Po reference quite funny.