Originally Posted by Boxalot
I agree almost entirely with what you say, Bogotazo.
The general concencus (not necessarily on here, but other places i've seen) has always been that you need to be a big, strong pressure fighter with a great chin and high punch output to beat Floyd, but i have always disagreed with that.
I've always felt that you need a variety of gameplans to beat Floyd and you need the ability to shift tactics and strategy mid-round. You need to be versatile and more than adequete in following at least 3 different stratergys. Floyd is so brilliant at ad******g that he can do it on his own, mid-round and early on in the fight. He rarely gets caught with the same shot twice and he can change his own offence in the very rare occasions it doesn't work (couldn't find the target often against Cotto so he brings the lead uppercut into play, which i'd rarely, if ever seen from him).
Guerrero DOES have this versatility. He can be a slick, relatively elusive southpaw who fights predominantly from the outside, and he showed his infighting ability against a bigger man in Andre Berto. He basically out-dogged Berto in that fight and wanted it more, but could he do this against Floyd? Not imo, no, although he would have to do it at times in the fight. He's also showed (in i think it was the Katsidis fight) that he can fight from strange angles at mid-long distance and throw LOTS of punches per round. Haven't seen that fight for a while but i'm pretty sure he was throwing body shots, jabs, straight lefts, 4, 5, 6 punch combinations, the lot. I do remember being impressed with his offensive arsenal in that fight and i picked him to beat Maidana in their scheduled bout.
What i'm saying is that Guerrero DOES have the versatility that i believe to be required in order to beat Floyd. You don't just beat him with one gameplan because, whatever it is, he WILL make the adjustments required to neutralise your gameplan. Is Guerrero good enough at the variety of gameplans i mention to beat Floyd? No, not a chance.
FWIW, i respect your opinion greatly on here and i wouldn't follow too dissimilar a stratergy to the one you laid out.
Agreed with everything said, good post, and thanks for the compliments! That part in bold is just how I feel. It's the best we can do in the fictional universe where we're on Team Ghost, but I wouldn't be betting on it by any stretch. Floyd is just so good at nearly everything.
Originally Posted by SJS19
1. I think he lacks the speed of foot to 'ambush' fight Mayweather. Mayweather's feet have slowed dramatically and he's much more stationairy than ever, but RG has a long way to get inwards and I just see him walking on to uppercuts. (A punch Mayweather has begun to throw with increasing regularity.)
2. That's the key buddy. The length. I see no conceivable way for Guererro to establish the jab, nor do I see him having the ring generalship in relation to Mayweather to dictate the rythm of the Boxing exchanges.
3. Again spot on. Berto has relied on physical tools all his life, so he was taken aback by the strength and tenacity of Guererro, which was aided by the Mexican American's craft. Berto has very little in the way of ring craft. As Guererro tries to make room for his own punches on Mayweather, he'll have to contend with Mayweather's use of his elbows which not only protects him, but actually manouvers Guererro into position for Mayweather's own work. I think that alot of the time, the fighter doesn't realise that they've been set up. They are subtly moved from the position they worked into, to a different one and still throw the shot that they originally intended to. Thus exposing themselves.
The rest of your post is intreuging and not open to crisitism at-all. If you or I were training Guererro we'd be almost identical in approach. For this fight, I'd suggest Guererro make it as dirty as possible. (When it happens, this fight will be dirty) Work in close behind that right jab, don't try and score with it, just pump it over and over to occupy Mayweather's thought process and get close, from there stamp on Mayweather's lead foot, smash your knee into his, but don't stand and watch, aim to deliver your shot a half second after the impact of the dirty tactics. Deception is the key here.
Mayweather can think in there, Guererro will need to feel. Spend training camp working on what you think will work, drill it over and over till it becomes habbit. RG can't afford that additional second it takes to mentally conceive a plan, if he does then he'll look back to reality and see that the entire chess board has changed.
1. Yeah, this is a problem. I think he should inch forward, then take a step, not try to come straight in from far with all punches blazing. As you said, foot-speed. But this is also why I want Guerrero to make him lead at times; make him pick up his rear foot as he throws, then push him back after he's gotten slightly off balance.
2. Like you said later, pumping out the jab without landing it is more what I was going for, didn't make it quite clear. DLH didn't land his jab that often, Judah didn't land his jab that often, but when they both threw it, Floyd was on the back-foot and they could find their way forward, either by circling right (Zab) or ducking under behind a high guard (Oscar) to avoid that right hand early.
3. Spot on, Guerrero can't be seduced into staying there, thinking he's suddenly found the answer simply because he's chest to chest. Big mistake. It's a reason I emphasized ambush fighting; the focus wouldn't be so much on the attack, but on the exit. Still need that Ortiz GIF, it shows what I'm talking about really well...oh shit I found it!!
See, right there, Ortiz is not landing a whole lot and is imposing his size to an extent, but he backs out twice without taking a single counter. Both of those times, Mayweather is caught in an exchange initiated not on his terms and has no answer. Do that a few times per round, you can go into the 2nd half with a lead. As we established, Guerrero can't just walk in, but he can get there. Your dirty fighting tactics are great advice, especially considering Guerrero can lunge into a straight left as he's knocking knees and scuffling with elbows. But again, he can't stay there, or he'll be out of his depth.
We'd make a great team, you and I.
Originally Posted by Slickstar
Mayweather and Marquez aren't the same guy as you kindly like to point out and remind us, but is trying to ambush a counterpuncher the way to go? A counterpuncher just used an ambush fighter as sacrifice for the knockout of the year 2.5 weeks ago.
I feel Floyd isn't super dirty when his opponent keeps it respectful. Ortiz tried taking it there with Floyd and was publicly executed.
If it goes that route, Mayweather has a deep toolbox for dirty fighting. Hopkins surprised us when he thumbed Pascal in the eye with hi jab.
Well, it can't be the only tactic. Because Floyd would eventually figure out the in-and-out, especially since Guerrero is no Pacquiao on his feet. Which is why I think he should circle and back-step from Floyd, so he can make him reach, and then go towards the inside; or feint behind a jab, then explode at close range before getting back to the center. The trick IMO is to reduce Floyd's accuracy as much as possible. Hence, don't stay in the pocket too long either, because as you say, Floyd would out-craft him on the inside.