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Old 01-31-2013, 02:11 PM   #99
Loudon
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

Part 2,

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I've heard these excuses, but even if there is a grain of truth to them, they're still weak and inherently inconsistent IMO.
Why are they weak? It was a culmination of the things I mentioned.


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Essentially, the story is that Jones suddenly decided to allow his otherwise estranged father to dictate the course of his career and turn down a chance to make history while he was squarely at his peak - only to wait for years until he was in his mid 30s to attempt the same feat? At the time Jones backed out of Douglas, he had already spoken of retiring well before the time that he would eventually fight Ruiz - not consistent with your claim that he was looking forward to "another shot further down the line." Besides, that was a helluva big opportunity to turn down and expect to get again sometime later.
You make things seem so straightfoward. His Dad had trained him since he was seven years old. They had a huge falling out in 1992, and had hardly spoke since. Big Roy stepped in, and said he wouldn't allow it. They both had discussions about it at length and it brought them close together for the first time in 6 years. All of Roy's family were happy that they were talking again. The fight with Buster wouldn't have made history. He was grossly out of shape at that point. Lou Saverese beat him in one round I believe. Roy always said crazy things in the 90's like he was going to retire next year etc. I've got loads of quotes from 90's boxing magazines. He was always going to fight into his 40's. If he was a billionaire, he'd still be fighting now. At 29 his circumstances were different to when he was 34. There's no way Big Roy could have stopped him fighting Ruiz in 2003. But in 1998, he was only 29, and he'd got other things to achieve.

Why go against his Dad's wishes, and upset the rest of his family, when he was only 29? He knew he'd get another chance, despite him talking of retirement. His Sister urged him to listen to his Dad and everyone was happy. I'm not sure why you're doubting any of this, because we know he went up in 2003. So he obviously wasn't afraid of Buster, otherwise he'd have never have gone up at 34.


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It also doesn't make sense to claim that he backed out of the fight because he wanted to unify the titles, since he actually gave up a title to make the fight happen. In fact, the whole charade only generated even more "unfinished business" at that weight, i.e: the Nunn/Rocchigiani/WBC scandal.
It was a culmination of things. He was only 29, so unless he was going to go up and stay at heavy after Buster, there was no point going against his Dad's wishes to come straight back down afterwards. Again, I don't see what difference it makes, because he went up to heavy afterwards. If he'd never have gone back up, then we'd be having a different debate. You would be saying it was nothing to do with Big Roy, it was the fact he was afraid etc. But we know that wasn't the case. Realistically he could never have had a proper heavyweight run before he was 30.


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It harms Calzaghe's legacy that he didn't diligently pursue this or other big fights back when he was in his prime, just as the same does for Hopkins and Jones.
Roy dismissed a few fighters, but he also pursued big fights that never came off. Joe wouldn't give up his WBO belt and take a risk to get big fights.


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However, Jones also suffers the additional harm of having lost the long overdue fight when it finally happened. No matter how you spin it, that's still worse than winning the fight, as Calzaghe did.
I don't have to put a spin on it. How does Roy suffer additional harm of losing to Joe in 2008?

The facts are these:

1. Roy had been destroyed by Glen Johnson 4 years EARLIER.

2. Roy was 9 weeks from his 40th Birthday.

3. In 2007, Joe said "Roy was a great fighter, but now he's finished. He's not the same anymore, and a fight between us both at this stage, would be POINTLESS."

4. In 2008, he was interviewed on Setanta Sports. He said "Roy's not a great fighter anymore, and I'd be disappointed if he was to be my last fight." I can show you the video if you want?

5. Just 12 months later, Danny Green knocked out Roy in a round.

Roy was finished at elite level. His last fight at elite level was against Tarver in Oct 2005. He hadn't fought at elite level for over 3 years. If someone like Glen had destroyed him in 2004, who had three really tough fights with Clinton Woods, who apart from Joe's biggest fans, cared about the outcome of the fight? There was no relevance to it.

Losing to Joe on points at nearly 40, can't harm Roy's legacy in anyway, after Tarver and Johnson had trashed him in 2004, and Joe had dismissed him on two occasions. It doesn't make sense.


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By his own admission, Jones had the option to go to Germany in '97 or '98 and attempt to eliminate his most distinguished rival in the division right then and there. Instead, he basically circumvented the fight by snatching up the titles that had been stripped from Dariusz while making increasingly larger demands for the fight - ultimately as much as $25 million.
We've already discussed this. We both know he didn't seriously expect to be paid that.


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Even the points you highlighted don't entirely substantiate that Jones really wanted the fight. Jones and Murad didn't exactly go "all out" to make the fight - at one point, they insisted that Dariusz come to the US and fight other fights first before they would consider fighting him. That's not going "all out" to make a fight - that's actually placing obstacles in the way of the fight. Jones also stated that the fight he most wanted at this time was Tito, which would've almost certainly been a glorified mismatch.
They didn't insist that DM went to America to have other fights. They PROPOSED the idea of a double header to HYPE a fight between the pair of them. The U.S. fans had hardly seen DM fight. That's not placing an obstacle in the way, it was good business sense. Get them both on a double header, everyone watches, then they fight each other after in a huge fight. DM's advisor refused. That was the obstacle. Brad Jacobs and Kerry Davis tried everything they could to negotiate with Peter Kohl, and it was clear he and DM weren't interested. We know from Murad's interview that I posted, what DM was asking for, and what he was getting a fight. He was sat comfortably in Germany, picking up decent pay cheques for fighting non threatening guys. Look at his resume. He turned down a $5M offer from HBO, to instead fight Joey De Grandis for $1-1.5M. He had no interest of leaving Germany for big fights. He was never going to go and fight Roy, or Tarver etc. He was content doing what he was doing.


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I don't go so far as to claim that Jones outright "ducked" Dariusz like many people do, nor do I claim that Dariusz's people were themselves all-out to make the fight either. But at best, Jones was indifferent to fighting his most distinguished rival in the division - again, not consistent with a claim that he "solidified" his legacy.
He wasn't indifferent. Everyone at HBO, and all of Roy's team tried to make the fight. It would have been great if the fight had come off, but he still solidified his legacy without fighting him. He's a 4 weight world champ. He embarrassed Toney. He beat Tarver after losing 14 pounds of muscle at nearly 35. He beat Ruiz in an embarrassingly one sided fight, who outweighed him by over 20 pounds, and who was coming off of recent wins against Evander Holyfield.


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Not true, as Tarver had already emerged as a distinguished rival and even a possible threat following his KO of Harding.
I meant that he'd already unified at 175.


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The main difference is the choices the fighters make. Issues over money, politics, etc. take priority today because fighters give them that priority.
I agree. But how would Ali have done today at heavyweight, with all of the different belts and promoters? Would he have had the opportunity of facing both of the K bros etc?


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Dariusz, Calzaghe, Ottke, and Jirov were all longtime unbeaten titleholders in or around Jones' weight class during his LHW reign. Any one of them would've been a viable rival and a distinguished scalp on Jones' resume.
Calzaghe and Ottke were nobodies in the boxing world when Roy was prime. Ottke was huge in Germany, but nowhere else. Joe wasn't a big name outside of Europe either when Roy was peak. They were both unknown Euro fighters who fought in a different weight class. A fight with those two wouldn't have meant anything at the time. Both of those fights were never viable. Once Roy had left the 168 division, there was no going back. He never gave it another thought. Why would he have been bothered about Ottke? Go and look at Ottke's resume.

We've discussed DM to death. Jirov was a possibility, but he was bypassed for a bigger fight against Ruiz at heavy.


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Rematching Hopkins in the early 2000s would've meant continuing a rivalry at the most optimum time that a fight between them could've happened.
But we both know why the fight didn't come off. I watched their famous HBO argument again yesterday. The catchweight would have been around 164 pounds. There was no way that Roy was going down to 164, to fight a guy who he'd already beaten for 50/50. It was never going to happen.



Regards, Loudon.

Last edited by Loudon; 01-31-2013 at 05:27 PM.
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