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Old 02-03-2013, 02:26 AM   #100
Rex Tickard
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post

It would have been a certainty, because it was Roy who made Harding and Tarver fight in the eliminator.
It's not a certainty, because of the lengths Jones went through to avoid the Nunn and Rocchigiani mandatories, which ultimately cost the WBC millions of dollars.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
We know that's what ended up happening with Roy, but it wasn't planned. He planned to stay up at heavy for a while.
It makes less sense that he would wait until he was at the tail end of his prime to attempt a lengthy run at HW. It also makes less sense that he would be leery of dropping down in weight in his late 20s when he would readily do the same in his mid 30s.


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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
DM clearly wasn't interested, as you can see by just having a quick glance at his resume.
Simply glancing at someone's resume won't tell you who he was interesting in fighting. Besides which, Dariusz fought many of the same opponents as Jones did - including Hill, who was probably the best LHW Jones beat prior to fighting Tarver. You could just as well look at Jones' resume and claim he wasn't interested in fighting someone like Dariusz either.


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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
I respect your opinion, but Roy was never the same after Ruiz. This is how I see it. If a fired up, hungry, motivated Tarver couldn't beat a version of Roy, who'd lost 14 pounds of muscle at nearly 35, after 50 fights, then how does he beat a motivated, healthier, younger version?
By using the improved gameplan that he used to KO Jones in the rematch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Glen dominated Roy for 9 rounds and then knocked him cold after two hard fights with Clinton Woods. In my honest opinion, Glen wouldn't have had a chance of beating Roy pre Ruiz.
To suggest a mere year or so would cause such an extreme turnaround is a bold claim. Besides which, Johnson gave many world class opponents tough, hard fights, win or lose. His resume shows that he was actually one of the better opponents Jones fought at LHW, even if that wasn't yet apparent heading into the fight. He went on to beat Tarver in his next fight, which temporarily placed him atop the division's ratings, and was proclaimed The Ring's FOTY for 2004.


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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
But how realistic would it have been had they fought earlier?
How "realistic" did it seem heading into the fight in which it actually happened, though?

If Tarver uses the same gameplan that he used in the rematch, there is sufficient reason to believe he would have a good shot at KOing any "version" of Jones.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
I don't think anyone was really bothered about the outcome of this fight, since Roy had been knocked out by Glen. It didn't really matter who won at that stage. Obviously both fighters wanted to win desperately, because their pride was at stake, but it wasn't considered a huge fight like the first two.
The 3rd fight was actually the biggest PPV seller of the series, and was also held before a sold-out crowd of about 20,000.

Although Tarver was the favorite, Jones was still considered a live underdog by many, for precisely the reasons I stated. Given that Johnson had gone on to beat Tarver in his next fight, even Jones' own loss to Johnson meant that he still had a claim to being rated as high as #3 at the weight.



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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
So I agree that they were possible, but the onus was on Hop and Joe. Roy was the man back then. You had to go to him.
As far as a fighter enhancing his legacy is concerned, the onus is on that fighter to do it. Missed opportunities will still leave gaps in his legacy irrespective of whether there was justification for not pursuing the fight.

Like I said, I don't disagree that Jones may have had justifiable reasons for turning down or ignoring certain fights, but legacies are made precisely by accepting those sort of inconveniences - and that's the topic of this thread.


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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Roy would never have thought that a fight with Joe in 2002, would have enhanced his legacy. I don't think anyone else would have thought that either back then.
Calzaghe was an unbeaten, multi-defense titleholder and rated as the probable #1 in a neighboring weight class (rivaled only by Ottke), and had already been showcased numerous times on Showtime. That's a strong addition to a resume no matter how you dice it.


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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
The fight with Buster wouldn't have made history. He was grossly out of shape at that point. Lou Saverese beat him in one round I believe.
Beating Douglas would've given him a win over a former lineal HW champ - that would've been a huge scalp on his resume regardless of the circumstances.

It's true that Savarese went on to beat Douglas in a round, but that fight only happened because Jones had backed out. The Savarese fight confirmed that Douglas' punch resistance was gone - but that wasn't entirely certain beforehand. Jones blew a potential opportunity to KO a former lineal HW champ and take the credit for himself.


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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Roy always said crazy things in the 90's like he was going to retire next year etc. I've got loads of quotes from 90's boxing magazines.
If you can question those statements, then what makes anything he's ever said reliable?


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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post

Why go against his Dad's wishes, and upset the rest of his family, when he was only 29?
Because he'd already gone against them when there was a lot less on the line, and would go against them again when he was older.

The real question is, why cherrypick this instance to suddenly care what his father thought?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
So he obviously wasn't afraid of Buster, otherwise he'd have never have gone up at 34.
Even an old Douglas was still a quicker, sharper puncher than Ruiz, and still had a formidable jab. His loss of punch resistance hadn't yet been clearly exposed by Savarese. Under these circumstances, it's very feasible that Jones might consider Douglas a bigger threat than Ruiz.


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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
I don't have to put a spin on it. How does Roy suffer additional harm of losing to Joe in 2008?
Because Calzaghe was a similarly aged fighter whose prime had overlapped Jones'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
They didn't insist that DM went to America to have other fights. They PROPOSED the idea of a double header to HYPE a fight between the pair of them. The U.S. fans had hardly seen DM fight. That's not placing an obstacle in the way, it was good business sense.
Even better business sense would've been for Jones to accept a fight in Germany in the late '90s, which probably could've filled a stadium without the necessity of other fights to hype it.

Either way, your argument actually reaffirms my point - that Jones' main priority in this situation was making money rather than a making a fight with the best available opponent in his division. As I said, he prioritized business at the cost of legacy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
He wasn't indifferent. Everyone at HBO, and all of Roy's team tried to make the fight.
They "tried" only to a certain degree - after several years had passed, and only if certain stipulations were met. If Jones had genuinely tried to make the fight, he could've simply gone to Germany two or three years earlier. At best, this was only a half-hearted attempt while Jones was eyeing his preferred fight with Tito.


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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
I agree. But how would Ali have done today at heavyweight, with all of the different belts and promoters? Would he have had the opportunity of facing both of the K bros etc?
I would expect so - especially since several other fighters have managed to face both Klitschko brothers as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Calzaghe and Ottke were nobodies in the boxing world when Roy was prime. Ottke was huge in Germany, but nowhere else. Joe wasn't a big name outside of Europe either when Roy was peak. They were both unknown Euro fighters who fought in a different weight class. A fight with those two wouldn't have meant anything at the time.
It would've meant wins over the two top-rated fighters in a single weight class. Jones went roughly a decade (from Toney to Tarver) without ever beating the best available opponent in any weight class he was in. Those two would be strong additions to his resume no matter how you dice it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Once Roy had left the 168 division, there was no going back. He never gave it another thought.
He repeatedly said he would go back for a fight with Tito, and ultimately did (or at least, a pound shy of it).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Why would he have been bothered about Ottke? Go and look at Ottke's resume.
What about it? Ottke's resume is probably better than the vast majority of opponents that Jones fought as champion, even if the nature of several of those wins is dubious. He even has Glen Johnson on his resume.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Jirov was a possibility, but he was bypassed for a bigger fight against Ruiz at heavy.
Actually, he was bypassed for Clinton Woods.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
But we both know why the fight didn't come off. I watched their famous HBO argument again yesterday. The catchweight would have been around 164 pounds. There was no way that Roy was going down to 164, to fight a guy who he'd already beaten for 50/50. It was never going to happen.
And yet Jones was perfectly willing to fight Tito at a catchweight, both before and after Hopkins beat him.

Last edited by Rex Tickard; 02-03-2013 at 04:50 PM.
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