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Old 02-06-2013, 06:05 PM   #102
Loudon
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Default Re: I see Roy Jones hanging past his prime is hurtin his legacy more than Ali hurt hi

Part 2.


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Beating Douglas would've given him a win over a former lineal HW champ - that would've been a huge scalp on his resume regardless of the circumstances.

It's true that Savarese went on to beat Douglas in a round, but that fight only happened because Jones had backed out. The Savarese fight confirmed that Douglas' punch resistance was gone - but that wasn't entirely certain beforehand. Jones blew a potential opportunity to KO a former lineal HW champ and take the credit for himself.
How much credit do you think Roy had've got if he'd have beaten him back then? It wasn't the Tokyo version that had knocked out Mike. It wouldn't have been a huge scalp. He doesn't get a lot of credit for beating Ruiz, so I don't think he'd have got much for beating Douglas. Why do you say he blew the opportunity? In the end it doesn't make a difference does it? Eventually he went up to heavy and won a version of the title. A lot of people had Ruiz to win, due to his physical advantages, but Roy embarrassed him to win easy on points. So he passed up Buster, but ended up dominating Ruiz. I can't see the problem? It was a legacy fight that made history.


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If you can question those statements, then what makes anything he's ever said reliable?
Fighters are always saying things like that. One minute they're on huge highs, then they're low, and they just get caught up in things. Roy talking about when he was going to retire, isn't the same as him commenting on other matters. In the same magazine that I have where Roy says that he may retire soon, there's also a quote from Barrera saying "I'm only going to fight 2 to 3 more times, and then I'm going to pursue other things." That was from 1995-96. Roy always said that he'd never stick around too long, and if he started to lose after his best, then he'd retire. I think he meant it at the time he said it. But life doesn't work out like that. He's now fighting in his 40's, and he's in a different mindset to what he was in when he was in his 20's. He simply can't let go.


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Because he'd already gone against them when there was a lot less on the line, and would go against them again when he was older.

The real question is, why cherrypick this instance to suddenly care what his father thought?
Because at the time, he was only 29 and he hadn't spoke to his Dad for 6 years. In 2003, he'd accomplished everything he could have given the circumstances, and he was 34. It was to define his legacy, and to my knowledge, Big Roy didn't try to stop him at that point.


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Even an old Douglas was still a quicker, sharper puncher than Ruiz, and still had a formidable jab. His loss of punch resistance hadn't yet been clearly exposed by Savarese. Under these circumstances, it's very feasible that Jones might consider Douglas a bigger threat than Ruiz.
Possibly. But I'm sure Roy thought he was in better shape at 29, than what he was at 34. The two opportunities presented themselves at completely different stages of Roy's career though. Ruiz came after he'd unified at 175, and had won titles in 3 weight classes. Ruiz also had a belt.


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Because Calzaghe was a similarly aged fighter whose prime had overlapped Jones'.
It doesn't make any difference. Roy hadn't fought at elite level for 3 years, and he hadn't won at elite level for 5 years going into the fight. It was 4 years after Johnson, and he was nearly 40. How much credit does Danny Green get for knocking Roy out in a round, just a year after Joe had beaten him on points? How much credit does Lebedev get? Roy was clearly passed his best a long time before he fought Joe. Joe himself dismissed Roy twice leading up to the fight. It can't possibly harm Roy's legacy.


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Even better business sense would've been for Jones to accept a fight in Germany in the late '90s, which probably could've filled a stadium without the necessity of other fights to hype it.
1. Why should the worlds best fighter have had to go to Germany back then?

2. It doesn't matter if it would have filled a stadium. Most of the revenue comes from PPV. The PPV sales would have been much higher in the U.S. A fight there would have brought the most money in for both fighters. But we know what DM turned down, and we know what he was getting paid for fighting the Hall's of the world.


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Either way, your argument actually reaffirms my point - that Jones' main priority in this situation was making money rather than a making a fight with the best available opponent in his division. As I said, he prioritized business at the cost of legacy.
How can you make a fight with someone that doesn't want to fight you? Kohl wouldn't negotiate with HBO. They then turned down $6M, and then went on to fight Joey De Grandis for $1-1.5M. That tells me everything i need to know.


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They "tried" only to a certain degree - after several years had passed, and only if certain stipulations were met. If Jones had genuinely tried to make the fight, he could've simply gone to Germany two or three years earlier. At best, this was only a half-hearted attempt while Jones was eyeing his preferred fight with Tito.
Stipulations? The double header was a great idea, and it would have benefited BOTH fighters. HBO tried to make the fight as big as they possibly could. More exposure meant a bigger fight. The bigger the fight, the more money DM would have received. Where does this Tito stuff come from? Tito was a potential opponent for Roy, IF he'd have beaten Hopkins. After Hopkins had beaten him there was no interest until 2008. In 2008, Tito was a named fighter who was a safe fight for Roy at that stage, and one that could put him back in the spotlight, and on course for a fight against the likes of Joe and Hopkins.


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I would expect so - especially since several other fighters have managed to face both Klitschko brothers as well.
Possibly, but times have changed. I know that Ali would have loved to have fought them. But what if they demanded the fight had to be in Germany etc and Ali didn't agree? What if they argued about the PPV percentage, and the revenue from the gate? What if both promoters didn't like each other, and neither party would back down etc? What if one promoter demanded options, or the K Bros weren't happy with their purse? There's lots of problems that could have arisen. There were less problems in Ali's era. There was only one belt. So to fight for that one belt, you had to face everyone. In a way, fighters were forced to fight each other.


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It would've meant wins over the two top-rated fighters in a single weight class. Jones went roughly a decade (from Toney to Tarver) without ever beating the best available opponent in any weight class he was in. Those two would be strong additions to his resume no matter how you dice it.
No, they wouldn't have both been strong additions to his resume. They were also in different divisions. Why would Roy have given Sven Ottke a seconds thought? Who outside of Germany would have wanted to see that fight? You're also making a huge assumption that Ottke would have wanted to fight Roy. It's laughable! Ottke was a nobody in a different weight class. Roy left the division in 1996. He wasn't going to go back down after he'd moved up, to fight an unknown German fighter, that wasn't a name, and who nobody respected outside of Germany.


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He repeatedly said he would go back for a fight with Tito, and ultimately did (or at least, a pound shy of it).
He didn't repeatedly say he'd go back for Tito. Again, it was just a possibility IF Tito had've beaten Hopkins. When he eventually went back for Tito in 2008, it was SEVEN years later, and AFTER his exploits at 175 and at heavyweight. It was a 170 catchweight. Although he made the weight pretty comfortably, he had no interest in returning to the SMW division.


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What about it? Ottke's resume is probably better than the vast majority of opponents that Jones fought as champion, even if the nature of several of those wins is dubious. He even has Glen Johnson on his resume.
They were in DIFFERENT weight classes. Why would the best fighter in the world who lives and fights in the U.S. at 175, care about a 168 German fighter? Their paths never crossed. Ottke was a nobody to Roy.


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Actually, he was bypassed for Clinton Woods.
Woods was a mandatory, after negotiations had broken down for a Hopkins rematch. Although I wasn't referring to a specific point in time. My point was, that the Cruiser division was bypassed by Roy, to go straight to heavy. Any title fight at Heavy, was bigger than a Jirov fight at Cruiser.


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And yet Jones was perfectly willing to fight Tito at a catchweight, both before and after Hopkins beat him.
Roy would have been willing to fight Hopkins for 60/40.

The catchweight didn't kill the Hopkins fight, it was the purse split. If Tito had've beaten Hopkins in 2001, then a fight with Roy was potentially on the table. It would have been interesting to see what the purse split would have been. One of the main reasons that Roy demanded 60% against Hop, was due to the fact that he'd already beaten him.


Regards, Loudon.

Last edited by Loudon; 02-08-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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