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Old 08-26-2008, 06:11 AM   #20
Dominating a decade
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Default Re: Who Looks Most "Beatable" in the 1970s: Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, or George Forem

Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Conclusion: I really can't see any valid argument being made for Frazier avoiding Lyle, Shavers, Norton and Patterson, especially not during the time frames you've given.
Magoo, did you read this?

I have re-read Marciano_Frazier’s initial post ( not all of it could be re-posted here due to character limit ), and he has his share of good points. I take it many liked his examples of Frazier facing highly ranked ring magazine contenders on his way up in the 1960's? Do we all agree here? Yes or no?

Read on. Can others ( M_F, John Thomas, and Chris ) admit the reverse? I see a pattern of Frazier not picking or facing higher ranked big punchers besides Foreman in the 1970’s, and not facing the biggest pucnhers in the 60's ( Patterson, Liston, or Mac Foster )

Let us fully examine them fairly, and like Marciano_Frazier's use Ring Magazine Annual ratings as the benchmark for the 1970's to see if Frazier avoided matches with higher ranked pucnhers.

This is fair:

1972. Frazier picked two non-ranked top ten guys in 1972 in Stander and Daniels. Why? Patterson, Norton, and Lyle were ranked fighters in 1972, They were also punchers. Check the annual ratings in 1972:

Frazier, Champion
  1. Muhammad Ali
  2. George Foreman
  3. Jimmy Ellis
  4. Ron Lyle
  5. Floyd Patterson
  6. Ernie Terrell
  7. Jose Roman
  8. Joe Bugner
  9. Ken Norton
  10. Jose Luis Garcia
In 1973, Fraizer lost to Foreman badly, then picked gun shy - light punching Bugner, while punchers such as Norton, Lyle and Shavers were all rated higher annually by Ring Magazine.

George Foreman, Champion
  1. Muhammad Ali
  2. Joe Frazier
  3. Ken Norton
  4. Jerry Quarry
  5. Ron Lyle
  6. Earnie Shavers
  7. Oscar Bonavena
  8. Joe Bugner
  9. Jimmy Ellis
  10. Chuck Wepner
1974: Why pick Quarry again? At least Quarry was ranked, yet as we can see Lyle and Norton were once again rated higher.

Muhammad Ali, Champion
  1. George Foreman
  2. Joe Frazier
  3. Ron Lyle
  4. Oscar Bonavena
  5. Joe Bugner
  6. Ken Norton
  7. Jerry Quarry
  8. Chuck Wepner
  9. Henry Clark
  10. Larry Middleton
1975, and this one’s really bad. Why pick a washed up Ellis? Ellis, like Stander and Daniels was not annually ring ranked. Ellis was done. Once again, punchers like Norton, Lyle, and Shavers were highly ranked. If Frazier wanted to pass Norton, a fight with Lyle or Shavers might have done it. Or why not pick Norton? Heck, Bobbick who really was not that good, had a decent enough right hand and he would have been a much better choice then Ellis.

Muhammad Ali, Champion
  1. Ken Norton
  2. Jimmy Young
  3. Joe Frazier
  4. George Foreman
  5. Ron Lyle
  6. Earnie Shavers
  7. Duane Bobick
  8. Joe Bugner
  9. Chuck Wepner
  10. Randy Neumann
Summary: Using ring ranking, fights with Patterson, Shavers, Lyle, and Norton could have been made and were all higher rated that ANYONE Frazier fought with the exception of Foreman. I have little doubt Frazier management avoided punchers in the 1970's. I am twisitng no facts here at all. We know who was higher ranked, and we know who the pucnhers were. I also beleive Patterson, Shavers, Lyle, and Norton hit harder than ANYONE Frazier beat.

Regarding the second Foreman vs Frazier fight in 1976, it was clear Foreman lost a lot of confidence from the Ali fight. Foreman was nearly upset by Lyle before the 2nd fight with Frazier. So perhaps Frazier’s’ team figured this time was the best to avenge a bad TKO loss. As it was, Frazier did much better the second time around, but still did not come close to beating a mentally deflated Foreman.

Last edited by Mendoza; 08-26-2008 at 06:39 AM.
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