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Old 04-28-2009, 04:54 PM   #17
SuzieQ49
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Default Re: Did Louis Draw The Color Line Line Johnson

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The truth is that no black challenger particularly stood out as a whole lot better than any white challengers, who would make Louis more money.
Not True. Jimmy Bivins, Elmer Ray, Lee Q Murray, and Jersey Joe Walcott stood WELL ABOVE any white challenger from 1943-1947.

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There was no great demand or one guy who really made a name for himself. Most of the black challengers back then lost to guys Louis beat, or didn't beat as impressively as Louis, or had spotty/sketchy/inconsistent results.
You have to understand alot of these white fighters received dubious decisions because of the color of there skin, and in some cases these black fighters were forced to wear Cuffs. On a whole, the black heavyweights of the 1940s were better than the white heavyweights. Once you got to the mid 1940s, Top black heavyweights like Elmer Ray, Jersey Joe Walcott, Lee Q Murray, Jimmy Bivins DID NOT LOSE to any white heavyweights.


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There was no one guy that folks got behind and said Louis was ducking if he didn't fight them.
No one got behind any black fighter back then. But if you read the papers, throughout the 1940s Louis was accused by various newspapers of ducking lee q murray and elmer ray and being scared to fight harry bobo. Now I think Louis would have knocked all these men out, but some of them would have been real tough fights for Joe and alot of them had live punchers chances. These guys deserved title shots. But you can bet your tail that Lem Franklin's 19-0 17 kayo run(6 knockouts over Ring Magazine top 10!) in 1941 to earn # 2 spot MORE THAN earned him a shot at louis's title, especially when you consider Franklin knocked abe simon out and simon got a REMATCH instead!



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Looking at his record, Elmer Ray indeed had a good career during the war years, but in truth, he beat NO ONE during those years. A bunch of no names. He did have a 1st round knockout loss on his record.
Just becuase you dont know the names on his record, doesnt mean he didnt beat good names of his era. Perk Daniels for instance was a top 10 rated contender By Ring Magazine when Ray beat him, Perk was a good fighter coming off some huge wins. Or the circumstances surrounding the other turkey thompson fight which should have been a DQ 6 win for Ray.

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he stopped Lee Savold in 2 rounds
only time top contender Savold would be knocked out in a 10 year span 1941-1951...Ray didnt just knock him out, he left him face first out cold. The other two times savold was down for the 10 count during this period? Two black heavyweights Joe Louis and Harry Bobo knocked him out.



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He beat Jersey Joe by decision in ‘46, then lost to him in the rematch by decision in ’47. He beat Ezzard Charles via decision in ’47, but then got stopped by Charles in 9 rounds in ’48.
You said it yourself right there....Ray beat TWO linear prime top 20 heavyweights of all time....Louis was inactive from mid 1946 all the way through Dec 1947....he could have easily fit a title defense in against elmer ray.


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Lem Franklin got stopped by Eddie Simms in 8 rounds in ’38, a guy who Louis stopped in 1 round. He decisioned Simon, but lost a decision to Musto, whom Louis stopped in 9 rounds. He then went on a real nice win streak, but in ’42 got stopped by Pastor, whom Louis beat by decision and by knockout.
Yes he did, and one of Lem Franklin's KO victims, Abe Simon, got a SECOND title shot at joe louis instead of Franklin.

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Turkey Thompson lost to Bob Pastor twice in ’41 (whom Louis beat twice). He drew with Tony Musto, whom Louis knocked out.. He drew with Abe Simon, whom Louis KO’d twice.

Harry Bobo was inconsistent. He twice lost to Melio Bettina, who Conn beat for the light heavy title. He had losses to Gus Dorazio, whom Louis stopped in 2 rounds.

Lee Q Murray lost twice to Bivins, in ’43 and ’44. As noted, a shot Louis defeated Bivins. In ’45, Murray was dq’d against Walcott for not trying.
Your Boxrec hunting here, do you know anything about these fighters or circumstances on these fights? Bob Pastor was one of the few legite white heavyweights of the era who certainly deserved his shot, but alot of those white heavyweights were unworthy and well managed and didnt have any tools to present any problems for Louis....read a newspaper article on Bobo, Thompson, or Murray....These guys were HUGE punchers of the era...dangerous fights for Joe.


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Louis was out with the war from ’42 to ’46. After the ’48 rematch stoppage win over Walcott, Louis was basically done, and only came back for tax reasons.
He came back for more than that. Louis went on an 8-0 run during his comeback beating 2 Ring Magazine top 10 contenders, Winning the heavyweight championship of the world by BBC with one punch knockout over # 2 rated savold, and shutout hall of famer Jimmy Bivins, not to mention busting up prime charles and prime marcianos faces horribly.


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Louis was out with the war from ’42 to ’46. After the ’48 rematch stoppage win over Walcott
Both Elmer Ray and Jimmy Bivins deserved title shots in 1946-early 1947, Especially Ray.

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 04-28-2009 at 05:44 PM.
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