09-24-2009, 07:07 AM
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
Join Date: Jun 2007
Re: Rocky Marciano or Jack Johnson who was the greater fighter?
MrMarvel says: Johnson was 4-1-2. Choynski was a veteran of more than 60 fights. It was a mismatch in terms of skill. Choynski did not knock Johnson cold. Johnson did not beat the count, but he was not out cold. And the knock out itself was a bit suspicious.
This is not correct. Johnson had over 20 fights before he meet Choynski! Here is his record going into the fight:
1894 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 16 -Some sources report "KO 15"Undated (circa 1894-95)
Dave Pierson Galveston, Tx W 1895Apr 11
"Utah" Bob Thompson Galveston, Tx L 4 -Some sources report 1899 1896 Cherokee
Kansas City, Ks KO Howard Pollar Galveston, Tx W
1897 Jim Rocks Galveston, Tx KO 4 Sam Smith Galveston, Tx W 10
1898 Reddy Bremer Galveston, Tx KO 3
Jim Cole Galveston, Tx W 4
Henry Smith Galveston, Tx D 15
1899Feb 11 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx D 7
Mar 17 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx WF 7May 6
Klondike (John Haines) Chicago, Il LT
4Dec 16 Pat Smith Galveston, Tx D 12
1900Mar 7 John Lee Galveston, Tx W
15Mar 20 Willie McNeal Galveston, Tx KO 15
Apr 6 Bob White Galveston, Tx W 15
Apr 12 Charley Brooks Galveston, Tx KO 2
May 1 Jim Scanlan Galveston, Tx KO 7
May 6 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 2
May 28 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 7
Jun 12 Horace Miles Galveston, Tx KO 3
Jun 25 Klondike (John Haines) Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00
Oct George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO
10Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12
Dec 27 Klondike (John Haines) Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00
1901Feb 25 Joe Choynski Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fightMar 22 –Johnson and Choynski were released from jail after each posted a $1,000 bondApr
26 Billy Stift Denver, Co D 10
Nov 4 Hank Griffin Bakersfield, Ca L 20
Dec 27 Hank Griffin Oakland, Ca D 20
Had the O'Brien-Ketchel contest you mention been six rounds, O'Brien would have been entitled to a clear victory, as he dominated Ketchel through the first eight rounds. Had O'Brien-Johnson been 10 rounds, how then would O'Brien have done? Johnson, clearly out of shape and uninspired, reached him a few times and once had him reeling. Was it only a matter of time? Likely. Don't dismiss O'Brien so easily. He was a tricky boxer.
True. A past his best supper middle weight out boxed and out jabbed Johnson. Since Johnson claims he wasn't in shape, O'briend coudl have out worked him in the later rounds if was scheduled for 10, or perhaps have been TKO'd. Either way, its very interesting to see what a skilled guy did vs. Johnson. Johnson's vaunted defense and glove blocking didn't help him at all here.
We have enough film to judge Johnson's abilities. Your argument is not compelling in the least.
I agree that we have enough flim and news reads to judge him.