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Old 09-28-2007, 05:50 PM   #25
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
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Default Re: Was Ali's second tier list better than some first tier lists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I strongly disagree here.

You claim that Quarry, Lyle, Shavers and Young could beat anyone Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano and Holmes beat.
I beg to differ.

Young is the best fighter out of those in my opinion. I don't see Shavers getting past Walcott (if Walcott comes out like he did against Marciano, he may well knock him out in the 1st), Charles would beat Shavers, Witherspoon would beat Shavers, Cobb (a Holmes opponent) in fact DID beat Shavers and needless to say, Cobb is one of Holmes' worst opponents, so go figure.

Lyle was very limited and it appears to me he gets hyped up a lot because he's on Ali's resume. Sorry but i don't see all that big punching ability that people make him out to have. He knocked out Shavers (who was knocked out even by journeymen several times) and that's it. He went the distance in almost every other big fight. Losing the decision, i might add. He certainly wouldn't get past smart and cagey veterans like Walcott, Charles, Moore or a Witherspoon, etc. He gets called a huge puncher to save Foreman's chin from looking bad, but mind you he was also floored by Young and Ali who didn't carry a big punch either.

Young and Quarry are better and they might beat some, but certainly would lose quite some fights, like they did in reality.

To sum it up, Quarry, Young, Shavers and Lyle as a group have lost fights to: each other, Lynn Ball, Gerry Cooney, Ossie Ocasio, Ken Norton, Bob Stallings, Bernardo Mercado, Randall Cobb, Eddie Machen, Jimmy Ellis and George Chuvalo.

These are hardly entities that made the era as great as you think it is. In fact, while most of those fighters were good contenders, they were nothing special. Fighters like that were around in every era and they would've always caused the listed fighters trouble, hence i see no reason to assume they would've been champions in any other era. It's not like Ali and Frazier were in their primes from 72 on, but they still beat them every time.
The key word here is could beat. I did not say would beat for sure. Yes, Shavers could KO Walcott or Charles. Yes Jimmy Young could out box anyone Johnson beat. Yes Quarry could beat anyone Dempsey beat. Yes Lyle could KO Schmeling or UD Baer.

If you want to tally up the W's and L's of Ali's tier two opponents, then compare them the W's and L's of the fighters Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, and Marciano beat, I think Ali's opponents will look a bit better.

Yes Quarry, Young, Shavers and Lyle as a group have lost fights to: each other, Lynn Ball, Gerry Cooney, Ossie Ocasio, Ken Norton, Bob Stallings, Bernardo Mercado, Randall Cobb, Eddie Machen, Jimmy Ellis and George Chuvalo. However Walcott and Chalres by themselves lost a lot and in some cases to lesser men than the above names. The same can be said for Louis or Dempsey opponents.

There have been quite a few weak lineal champions. Hart, Braddock, Spinks, Rhaman, ect..... For sure Quarry, Lyle, Shavers, and Young were just as good, if not better.
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