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Old 08-29-2010, 04:03 AM   #48
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Default Re: Randy Couture should fight James Toney in a Boxing Match. Why?

Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
wait, is randy couture just a wrestler?

where did he learn that arm triangle from greco roman wresting?

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that randy couture is a MMA fighter and has been fighting under mma rules since 1997.

"Equal ground" huh?

everyone who heard of this fight with any mma knowledge knew that toney would lose. I knew it, and I bet the TS knew it. If your surprised by the outcome you probably dont know much about mma.

I havent seen the fight yet but wouldn't be surprised if toney didnt even know how to stop the takedown and while on his back probably was completely helpless.

that suggests that toney was not prepared for coutures wrestling which of course was his own fault.
I'll respond to this with replies already given in this thread. If read by themselves, it should be enough. If read in the context of this thread in all it's replies, my position will be very clear.

In response to my OP I received this reply, on that same context of "equal ground" with various implications in other areas:

Originally Posted by #1Rounder View Post
I disagree.. If they both stayed true to their sport Toney would have won.

Randy is a wrestler. In Wrestling you cannot strike an opponent. If it was to see who's decipline was better, Toneys or Randys, toney should be allowed to box and randy only allowed to wrestle, not choke or strike.

The thing is, they fought by MMA rules. Since wrestling doesn't progress past olympic stage, Randy had to become a MMA fighter. While James is a Boxer. They were not on a level playing field or middle ground as you state.
It went on as follows:

Originally Posted by James23 View Post
This is amazing. I can't possibly be more clear.

Yes, in wrestling you can't strike an opponent. You can, however, submit your opponent. Catch-Wrestling/Submission-Wrestling. And it was Randy's wrestling that effectively neutralized Toney's boxing. So, he would have won even with just his wrestling.

Why this is "even ground" in a metaphorical sense is that they're both free to do anything they like within the accepted realm of combat athletics. It encompasses all their skill sets. Randy's wrestling and Toney's boxing. They're both free to try and do what they do best. However, one finds very quickly that trying to do so while the other is trying to do something else, it becomes very difficult depending on the styles. And that is what they have to adapt to.

The problem with an argument like Poppy's, as you can see from him clearly avoiding it despite my stating it several times, is that MMA itself is just now becoming a style in and of itself. He is using it as a blanket term to encompass all fighters who practice MMA as if they've been doing MMA all along. This is not the case for 99% of all MMA practicioners today. They didn't start out doing MMA. They started with an individual discipline and branch out and learn more disciplines to compliment their original one.

This is an evolvement of, essentially, what happened at UFC 1. It was more of a happy accident, but realistically was bound to happen. Strikers learned that they were completely useless once entering the grappling realm. So, how do they make their striking effective? Well, they have to learn grappling. Wrestlers learn that their form of control is vulnurable to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu positioning and submission holds/chokes. So, what do they do? They learn Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to compliment their wrestling so they can attack and defend appropriately. Now, what happens to the grappler who think he can attack a striker successfully but finds that the striker knows what he's going to do? Well, he has to develop some striking skills to survive longer in the stand-up so he can apply his techniques with greater effectiveness.

Now once you do this enough times, you have guys getting really good at everything and can attack in every possible manner. This is the inevitable result of the summation of the styles. It's the stripping away of the unessentials.

But the key is they all began with a style. They didn't begin with MMA. They couldn't have. It simply wasn't available to them in it's current form, or even it's more recent forms.

This is the flaw in his argument and he can't get around it. Both Randy and James started out on even ground. Randy went with wrestling. Toney went with boxing. Randy branched out much earlier in his career, relatively speaking, and learned other styles to compliment his already great GR wrestling background. Toney is a great boxer. He started very recently to try and learn other disciplines to make his boxing more effective. He needed to keep it on the feet to make his boxing effective. The moment he started doing this he became a mixed martial artist. He didn't begin as a mixed martial artist, just as Randy didn't. He is a mixed martial artist because he is learning more then one discipline.

It's a subtle difference but it is very profound.

Originally Posted by #1Rounder View Post
Yes you can submit in catch wrestling, but I doubt Randy was a catch wrestler, idk he may have been,.. Chances are he only did folk, freestyle, and GR..

And I wouldn't call toney a mma cuz he was trying to learn to sprawl for 4 months.. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling him a MMArtist.. That's just me though..
Originally Posted by James23 View Post
He did primarily Greco-Roman wrestling, but I'm certain that he learned some catch wrestling and submission wrestling techniques. Nearly all wrestlers do and all elite ones certainly do.

And of course Toney is a Mixed Martial Artist. He's a novice one, but still one, as I've stated. I strongly suggest reading what you quoted again. It really is the key difference and is why he can't argue against it.

You learn one style of fighting, you're that. You're a wrestler. You're a boxer. You're a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter. You're a Muay Thai fighter. However, once you start to learn something other then your original discipline, you cease to be just a *insert original discipline*. You're mixing the styles (if you're attempting MMA or even just learning two things'll inevitably mix them up and find out for yourself what works best) into something completely different and that is what we called a Mixed Martial Artist. Toney is a Mixed Martial Artist with a base in boxing. Randy is a Mixed Martial Artist (considerably more experienced then Toney) with a base in wrestling. There are very, very few people competing in MMA today who are just Mixed Martial Artists.

It really can't possibly be made any clearer then this.
Hopefully that clears up any potential confusion.

Last edited by James23; 08-29-2010 at 04:19 AM. Reason: Correct Quotation Included.
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