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Old 07-04-2007, 04:56 PM   #47
Marciano Frazier
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Default Re: So what exactly is wrong with Nat Fleischer's top 10 heavyweight list?

Originally Posted by TBooze

Of course, but it was a points system dropped by NYSAC soon after, the fight would of been a draw in virtually any other time frame.
By that token, I declare that Juan Manuel Marquez beat Manny Pacquiao by UD, because on a rounds scoring system(which was the predominant scoring system for most of the gloved era), Marquez won it going away, and therefore Chris John is really the current linear world featherweight champion.

The scoring system used in the fight was the one accepted by the Commission at the time and agreed to in the contract for the fight. You can't come in after the fact and declare that the fight was actually a draw because you like what the result would have been if the rules hadn't been what they were. Somehow, I strongly doubt you'd be claiming it was a draw if the points tie-breaker had gone to LaStarza.

And you're wrong in claiming that it "would have been a draw in virtually any other time frame." For example, under a 10-point must system, Marciano would have won by two points(under the rounds system, he had no scoring advantage for the knockdown in the fourth, and the point deduction in the eighth, a round which he dominated, simply reversed the round instead of making it even). All of that is academic, though, because all fights are fought under the rules that were agreed to by the sanctioning commissions and fighters in their contracts, and neither you nor anyone else can go around tinkering with the rules and reversing history to their favor.

As for Wallace of course everyone knew he lost, but no one knew he was going to try and claim to be unbeaten as a pro (paid fighter)...
Um, yes they did. Everyone regarded Marciano as an undefeated professional from the beginning. There was never any, "But wait, that Golden Gloves three-round amateur tournament fight with Coley Wallace, who wouldn't turn pro for years yet was really a pro fight!" No one tried to argue anything like that, because it would've been silly. Why don't we take a gander through the contemporary newspaper accounts of Marciano's early fights?

"Marciano is unbeaten with 17 knockout victories in 18 pro starts."
-Long Beach Telegram, July 27, 1949

"Unbeaten Marciano has knocked out 21 opponents in 23 victories."
-Charleston Daily Mail, December 2, 1949

"Pat Richards of Columbus, Ohio, drops to a sitting position on the bottom rope after taking a terrific right-hand punch to the jaw from ROCKY MARCIANO (right), undefeated Brockton, Mass., heavyweight, in the second round of their semifinal fight in Madison Square Garden last night."
-Long Beach Telegram, December 3, 1949

There is no giant cover-up going on here. There was not some kind of collective amnesia over the next year after Marciano fought Wallace. Notice these guys all have the right numbers for Marciano's pro fights- everyone knew about the Epperson fight, everyone knew about the Wallace fight, everyone knew when they had happened and what had happened, and no one said, "But wait! We should go back and pretend that Marciano's amateur Golden Gloves tournament matches were actually professional fights!" Rather that is an idea spread around 50 years later by certain individuals who can't seem to deal with Marciano's legacy and want to edit history to to suit their agendas.
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