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Old 07-05-2007, 05:11 AM   #65
Marciano Frazier
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Default Re: So what exactly is wrong with Nat Fleischer's top 10 heavyweight list?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
But Foreman and Frazier were not claim unbeaten pro records as a reason for Greatness.
You can't create a double-standard that only works when you're talking about Marciano. Answer the question. If it turned out that Frazier or Foreman had a $15 pro fight on some obscure Indian reservation before making it big in the Olympics, would you then declare that all of their subsequent amateur fights should really count as pro fights? When someone said, "Frazier would've been undefeated champion if he retired after Ali," would you then respond, "Nuh-uh! He lost to Buster Mathis in the Olympic qualifiers!"?

Quote:
Marciano's record is such, that the only way you can put a serious argument together for greatness is if his '0' is untainted.
Baloney. Even if he didn't have a "0" at all, there would be an overwhelming serious argument for his greatness. Let's imagine that, with everything else happening exactly the same, the first LaStarza decision goes against him and he ends up at 48-1. The serious argument would be as follows:
Marciano was world champion with a 7-0(6 knockouts) record in title fights, had only one career loss, a controversial split decision when he was green to a 37-0 top opponent and avenged by brutal knockout, was one of the most successful knockout artists of all time with the highest knockout percentage of any linear heavyweight champion in history, clearly and uncontroversially defeated every man he ever faced and defeated the best available opposition in his era. Marciano would still be an undeniably great champion and would be frequently seen in top 10 lists. The "0" he has in real life is just icing on the cake.

Quote:
Bt because he was paid as an amateur and switched status twice, he has not got an untainted pro '0'.
A lot of amateurs in most all sports, including boxing, are privately paid by someone while they are participating amateurs- since you're not getting a purse for the fight, you need payment so you can provide for yourself and devote time to training. Switching status does not 'taint' or in any way effect one's professional record. The timeline does not effect the type of contest engaged in. Amateur fights are not defined as "fights you have when you haven't had any pro fights," and pro fights are not defined as "any and all fights you have after having one pro fight." Rather, amateur fights are unpaid fights(fights with no purse in the contract or offered by the commission) using amateur equipment and amateur rules under with amateur commissions, and professional fights are fights fought for contracted purses with professional equipment and professional rules under professional commissions. The Marciano-Coley Wallace fight clearly and undeniably falls into the first category, while the Marciano-Epperson and Marciano-Bilazarian through Moore fights clearly and undeniably fall into the second category. Every single one of Marciano's fights in the second category was won by Marciano. Hence, Marciano has an untainted professional "0" on his record.
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