Originally Posted by Boilermaker
His middleweight reign was patchy. I cant see how he gets to 3rd of all time, but i know some rank him that high. He has to rate behind Monzon and Hagler, surely based pure consistency and longevity. He is definitely behind Fitzsimmons, based on spectacular reign, longevity, dominance and any other criteria you want to invent. It would seem pretty hard to rate him over Harry Greb at middleweight, although I suppose Greb may have been a little overweight for most of his big wins, which might weigh against him.
Sam Langford has a decent argument to be ranked above him, though he does have the same trouble as Greb, perhaps to a larger extent. Tommy Ryan's record at middleweight, is close to identical with Ray's.
I do think Ray is top 10 and probably top 5, but he is not the out and out standout that people try to make out. This is based solely on his record, if you want to look at subjective features like how he looked, strength of era etc, then that is a different situation, but so far as dominance of the middleweight division goes, he was not the most dominant champion of all time, and to be honest i would probably say it is more likely at best 3rd and not at worst.
And by the way, in case i am misinterpreted, i do think that if focused and in form he does have a decent chance against any middleweight that ever fought, but it is just that he is not guaranteed to win. That should be undisputed actually, since he wasnt guaranteed to (and didnt always) win against the best middleweights of his own time!
B, I must remind you that Harry Greb weighed about 158-9 for his fight with Mickey Walker in 1925,past his peak, and almost blind. Of course when he was not fighting for his middleweight title,Greb would come in a few pounds over 160 pounds. Why not ? He still spotted the big boys 10-50 pounds,and still
whipped them. But when Greb had to,he could, and did make the weight.
P.S. I saw that great ko of Randy Turpin at the Polo Grounds in 1951.One of the great thrills of my life too see Robinson,with a bad cut over his eye, go for broke in the 10th round to ko the tough Randy Turpin.
Aside- Randy Turpin at his best I give an even chance to lick Marvin Hagler.
Turpin was a powerful,awkward puncher who was as strong as Hagler,and
had a difficult style to fight. He had mental problems,and went downhill very quickly, soon after...