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Old 11-10-2007, 06:22 PM   #46
mcvey
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Ali seems to be able to walk on water in the eyes of some. Mildenberger was a small heavyweight up against a prime Ali.


There is no doubt that Mildenberger's good showing annoyed Ali a bit,
and eventually Ali switched styles to slug with Mildenberger because at times Midenberger was having his share of moments when they two were boxing instead of slugging.


If Mildenberger could land his jab vs a prime's Ali's defense, than so could the heavies I mentioned. The difference is, I don't think Ali would welcome a slugging match with Bowe, Lewis, or Klitschko.
Mildenberger scaled1941/2 to Ali,s204,not a huge difference.Don tyou think the fact that Mildenberger was a southpaw had something to do with Alis performance? probably not as you didnt mention it.Max Schmeling who was ringside commented ,"Ali is giving Karl a hell of a beating",I rhink you are egging thepuddin abit Ali was never in any trouble against the German was he?Ali hurt his right hand in the 3rd round ,but still put Mildenberger down 3 times in the fight,the German put up a good fight ,but was never in danger of winning.The only punches that Hurt Ali were rather low body shots,as I recall. To sum up Ali was facing a south paw for the first time for years,but despite spirited resistance from his challenger,and nursing an injured hand from the 3rd ,he dropped his opponent 3 times before the referee stepped in and stopped the fight in 2nd minute of the12thrd ,Ali came out of the ring unmarked.
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Old 11-24-2007, 08:01 PM   #47
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Against prime Tyson or 90-96 Tyson Ali would half to make an adjustment. Not nuthugging Tyson as popular accusation on this sight says, Tyson is just too heavy, powerful and fast for Ali to have a low guard, he might use a low guard till he gets hit. Same with Holmes but could get away with it with Lewis or Holyfield. Both are not quick enough. Most guys of the Modern Era Ali could get away with it.
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Old 11-24-2007, 09:11 PM   #48
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

I think he would be a solid top-10 fighter today. Nothing more.
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Old 11-24-2007, 10:02 PM   #49
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

I watched the Ali/Moore 1962 fight today and Mildenburger/Ali and Ali/Chuvalo and I have to tell you even though it was Archies next to last fight, he hit Ali with a lot of punches right hands and hooks, Ali had fast hands and reflexes and stopped Archie in the 4th but Archie landed some good clean shot and defended well vs Ali. Mildenburger was a tough fight for Ali and yea, the southpaw style troubled him but I was thinking Sultan Ibragimov is a better fighter than Karl, and the Chuvalo fights, Ali moved good but he got hit a lot by George and a lot to the body but head shots too, I dont know if Ali could fight with his hands down low, today, there is a lot of amatuer experienced Pro's fighting at Heavyweight now, and a lot of guys with over 40 fights but again, a fighter is great for fighting in his time and the problem is you can not take a fighter out of his time, you got to freeze frame him
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Old 11-24-2007, 11:47 PM   #50
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Right now, a guy like Wladimir Klitschko could take advantage of this and time Ali with jabs and right hands over the top. But other than that, I doubt Ali's low guard defense would be much of a problem with Chagaev, Ibragimov, or Peter.
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:15 AM   #51
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Mendoza,

Here is a quote from a previous post you made:

"Actually the bigger fighters that Ali fought who had skills and speed like Norton, Young, Lyle and later on Holmes had little trouble landing on Ali. They took advantage of Aliís technical flaws on defense. While Ali was older for Holmes, he was in his prime for Norton, and only slightly past it for Lyle and Young."

I am not sure whether you are serious or not?

Ali 'older' for Holmes - perhaps it would be fairer to point out that it was 16 years since he was first crowned HW champ, that he had had 60 pro fights, and that he was suffering from a neurodegenerative disease.
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Old 11-25-2007, 02:34 PM   #52
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

The low guard of 60's Ali would be nost dangerous against Lennox Lewis, and if Lennox could resist being drawn out into be made to slug, and be careless, then he would have a great chance to upset Ali. Lewis was capable of being overly cautious, so I think he would have been smart enough to resist the temptation.
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Old 11-25-2007, 05:39 PM   #53
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I watched some of Ali's early title defenses vs Patterson, Chavalo, Terell, and Cooper. While Ali had great feet and quick defensive reflexes, his guard was wide open.

In the 60's, Ali seemed to have a height, speed, and reach advantage over just about everyone he fought. Ali was hit cleanly at times, but seemed to be able to get away with fundamental defensive flaw because no opponent he faced could match him in speed, size or reach. Sometimes a fighter would be near even to Ai in one of the three mentioned attributes, but the other two were not close enough to even things out.

But what if Ali was fighting a skilled fighter in the 80's, 90's, or 00's. A man who could match or exceed Ali's height, reach, and is close to Aliís hand speed?
I really don't think handspeed has improved in the last 25 years. If anything, it's by and large gone downhill. And the fighters who do have elite speed for the most part are not 6'3" or more. Floyd Patterson had better handspeed than anyone Ali would be meeting now.

Quote:
In this case, I think Ali would need to re-tool his defense style. Otherwise he's wide open to jabs, hook, and rightsÖand would find himself in a tough fight.
Having said what I did before, however, I do think Ali would need to make adjustments against certain historical opponents, like a Mike Tyson- with Tyson's combination of speed, skill and power, I don't find it hard at all to picture him scoring with a fair number of tremendous hooks on an Ali fighting the same way we see him do against many of his '60s opponents. A younger Ali may need to adopt a more '70s-ish style to take on the likes of a Tyson.
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Old 11-25-2007, 08:07 PM   #54
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Mendoza:

"Actually the bigger fighters that Ali fought who had skills and speed like Norton, Young, Lyle and later on Holmes had little trouble landing on Ali. They took advantage of Aliís technical flaws on defense. While Ali was older for Holmes, he was in his prime for Norton, and only slightly past it for Lyle and Young."
Quote:
NickHudson: I am not sure whether you are serious or not?

Ali 'older' for Holmes - perhaps it would be fairer to point out that it was 16 years since he was first crowned HW champ, that he had had 60 pro fights, and that he was suffering from a neurodegenerative disease.
Nick,

I think Ali was to far past it for Holmes, but I definitely saw Ali having issues vs Norton, Lyle, and Young, and in those fights Ali was not nearly as far gone as he was vs Holmes.

Ali's poor defensive habits would make things difficult for him vs the elite fighters in the 80's, 90's, and 00's.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:45 PM   #55
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I think Bugner and Terrell had average hand speed. Not nearly as fast as Wlad, Lewis, Bowe, or Holmes. Besides, both Bunger and Terrell were defensive minded fighters, not aggressive jabbers or power punchers like the men I mentioned.
Bugner's jab in the second fight with Ali is one of the best I've ever seen on a heavyweight. It's like a whip, and Ali, at 33, avoids it almost effortlessly. Actually I'm not too impressed with Lewis and Klitschkos jabs. They're long and powerful, but lacks that special snap I think. Bowe really hade a good jab, though, as well as Foreman after his comeback (he had a good jab when young as well, but didn't utlise it as effectively).
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:50 PM   #56
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Default Re: The 60's Ali. Could he get away with a low guard today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Nick,

I think Ali was to far past it for Holmes, but I definitely saw Ali having issues vs Norton, Lyle, and Young, and in those fights Ali was not nearly as far gone as he was vs Holmes.

Ali's poor defensive habits would make things difficult for him vs the elite fighters in the 80's, 90's, and 00's.
I don't think Ali really had problems with Lyle. He gave away a lot of rounds trying to get Lyle to exert himself, which ultimately succeded, but Lyle didn't land much. Ali on the other hand seemed to almost hit Lyle at will the few times he really went on the offensive. I actually think Ali was quite impressive in that fight, even if the score-cards doesn't reflect this.

Also, Ali rarely kept his hands at their usually low level in that fight. For long periods he actually used a peek-a-boo guard.
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