Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-18-2011, 12:43 PM   #1
Casamayor122
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,552
vCash: 1000
Default Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Some consider him an ATG, some think he had ATG abilities. He was inducted in the IBHOF in 2009.

IBF bantamweight champion with 15 title defenses. He was champion for 7 years.

Rated P4P No.3 No.4 No.5 in various years.

Let's look deeper into his reign as IBF bantamweight champion.

He beat Kelvin Seabrooks for the fairly new IBF title. Kelvin Seabrooks was 25-13 at the time and finished 27-22 (losing almost every fight after OC until he retired)

He had 15 successful defenses but his opposition was extremely weak. He only fought two Ring rated bantamweights in his entire reign.

Kelvin Seabrooks was Ring No.4 at bantamweight. Billy Hardy who was ranked at No.10 only because he gave Canizales a tough fight but returned to obscurity after their 2nd fight.

He never unified and never became undisputed champion. He was a title holder.

He was defeated by the two good boxers he fought: Wilfredo Vasquez and Junior Jones.

He somehow managed to avoid every good bantamweight of his time except the aforementioned two who beat him at a higher weight.


To summarize:

IBF champion with 15 successful defenses.

Ring rated boxers defeated in boxing career [2]: Kelvin Seabrooks, Billy Hardy

Champions defeated [4]: Kelvin Seabrooks, Clarence Adams, Rolando Bohol, Prudencio Cardona

1. Kelvin Seabrooks

IBF champion with 3 successful defenses

2. Clarence Adams

18 years old when Canizales defeated him by bullshit stoppage.
7 years later
WBA super bantamweight champion with 2 successful defenses

3. Rolando Bohol

IBF flyweight champion with with 1 successful defense
Lost most of his fights before losing to Canizales and retired soon afterwards.

4. Prudencio Cardona

WBC flyweight champion with 0 successful defenses
On big losing streak before and after he lost to Canizales.


If that is the criteria for being inducted into the IBHOF how many active boxers get in?


Reevaluation 1: Eder Jofre
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Last edited by Casamayor122; 07-18-2011 at 12:59 PM.
Casamayor122 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-18-2011, 10:24 PM   #2
Drew101
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: "...The Land of Dixon and Langford..."
Posts: 7,704
vCash: 0
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Canizales looked fabulous at bantamweight, and he did put up very good numbers. I wouldn't consider him an ATG, but because of the way he performed against the opposition he faced, I'd be inclined to say he's as worthy some of the inductees. But I'd have a hard time rating him in my Top 10 at the weight at this point.
Drew101 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2011, 10:53 PM   #3
The Funny Man 7
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: here (duh!)
Posts: 3,199
vCash: 1026
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Yeah its true his resume isn't very strong, mostly quantity and longevity over quality. As has been said the crux of his reputation was the way he looked when he fought. Clearly he was a brilliant fighter and he had the kind of style that delights purists, with measured agression, body punching, head movement, feints, power, footwork, etc etc. I don't really have a concrete answer on where he should rate or if he's overrated, those are just my thoughts.

P.S. its a shame the Eddie Cook fight never came off since that could have really validated his standing.
The Funny Man 7 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2011, 10:58 PM   #4
Drew101
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: "...The Land of Dixon and Langford..."
Posts: 7,704
vCash: 0
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Actually, Casa...Just throwing this out here...But how about doing a compare/contrast with another bantamweight who fought in or around the same era that you feel might be more deserving of accolades. Sahaprom might be an interesting choice.
Drew101 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 10:21 AM   #5
Casamayor122
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,552
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew101 View Post
Actually, Casa...Just throwing this out here...But how about doing a compare/contrast with another bantamweight who fought in or around the same era that you feel might be more deserving of accolades. Sahaprom might be an interesting choice.
Yeah I could and I plan on doing a double feature in the future.

It's a good comparison. But Sahaprom was an eternal No.2 in his division and was never rated in the Ring P4P. On the other hand Canizales was No.1 from 1991-1994 and was ranked the Ring No.3 No.4 No.5 P4P.

You're right, Sahaprom compares favorably to Canizales.

Both had similar number of defenses (Canizales: 15 ; Sahaprom: 14)
Both were champions for 7 years.
Canizales was IBF champion while Sahaprom was a two-time champion (WBA, WBC)
Canizales beat 1 champion (Seabrooks) while Sahaprom beat 2 (Chuvatana, Tatsuyoshi)
Sahaprom beat more ranked opponents than Canizales.
Sahaprom had more longevity.
Both looked skillful in the ring.
Both somehow managed to avoid almost all the good fighters in their division. More so in the case of Canizales.

If you compare them objectively you have to conclude that Sahaprom clearly has the edge. Compared to Canizales he looks very underrated but in reality I think he is only slightly underrated.
Casamayor122 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 10:39 AM   #6
Popkins
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 13,401
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

I applaud Casa for this thread. Even as a fan of Canizales's skillset, the position he now occupies in the ratings and affections of many is wholly unwarranted, if we do indeed prize resume above all else.

I very much look forward to the day the 'Reevaluation' spotlight is turned on the likes of Joe Calzaghe and Kostya Tszyu.
Popkins is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 10:57 AM   #7
Boxed Ears
Irony Himmler
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nakalenisuka, Russia
Posts: 24,184
vCash: 26665
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

I would agree that there is plenty of valid criticism of ranking him particularly highly, historically. That said, I believe him to be one of the best modern day small men I've seen and have no real personal doubt about him, ability-wise. A great boxer, a great fighter, worthy of HOF notoriety. I certainly think of him as a must see for all serious boxing fans who want to be as versed as possible on all the notable fighters with film on them.
Boxed Ears is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 11:48 AM   #8
frankenfrank
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,326
vCash: 3600
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casamayor122 View Post
Yeah I could and I plan on doing a double feature in the future.

It's a good comparison. But Sahaprom was an eternal No.2 in his division and was never rated in the Ring P4P. On the other hand Canizales was No.1 from 1991-1994 and was ranked the Ring No.3 No.4 No.5 P4P.

You're right, Sahaprom compares favorably to Canizales.

Both had similar number of defenses (Canizales: 15 ; Sahaprom: 14)
Both were champions for 7 years.
Canizales was IBF champion while Sahaprom was a two-time champion (WBA, WBC)
Canizales beat 1 champion (Seabrooks) while Sahaprom beat 2 (Chuvatana, Tatsuyoshi)
Sahaprom beat more ranked opponents than Canizales.
Sahaprom had more longevity.
Both looked skillful in the ring.
Both somehow managed to avoid almost all the good fighters in their division. More so in the case of Canizales.

If you compare them objectively you have to conclude that Sahaprom clearly has the edge. Compared to Canizales he looks very underrated but in reality I think he is only slightly underrated.
But you ignore one most important thing : Sapharom was stopped during his prime while Canizales was not
frankenfrank is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 12:14 PM   #9
Casamayor122
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,552
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
But you ignore one most important thing : Sapharom was stopped during his prime while Canizales was not
I wouldn't call someone with 4 fights prime.
Casamayor122 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 02:37 PM   #10
lora
Fighting Zapata
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
vCash: 500
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Sahaprom suffered because of the bias to american based Bantams.Guys like Austin, Marquez etc all got very overhyped and overestimated as fighters at certain points imo.So one beating the other would be seen as some huge win, when in reality it was no better(arguably worse) than a Chuvatana or Nishioka.

As for Canizales, i'd agree anyone rating him as an all-timer is giving him some serious benefit of the doubt.I never really saw him as being rated that highly though...as popkins said more on the overall level of the likes of Calzaghe and the Russian.Supporters and detactors in equal measure.

For me, i saw him as an excellent talent that took the easy splinter title paydays route and squandered his chances at a more unequivocal kind of greatness in the eyes of the hardcore fans.PLus, though generally dominant,he did have the occasional flat performance against so-so opponents that can cast a bit of doubt over how he fares against the better fighters the division has to offer.
lora is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 02:44 PM   #11
lora
Fighting Zapata
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
vCash: 500
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casamayor122 View Post
I wouldn't call someone with 4 fights prime.
True but it's a bit different in Thai fighting culture.Many of their better boxers were fully realised prime fighters far quicker than other nations.

In sahaprom's case he looked as good as he ever was athletically and technically against Chuvatana.Maybe improved slightly as a ring-general, though it's tough to say without a rematch against Konadu.nana always had a tough style for predominently outside boxing stylists and he caught Sahaprom well early.
lora is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 04:47 PM   #12
ron u.k.
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sunderland
Posts: 2,464
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casamayor122 View Post
Some consider him an ATG, some think he had ATG abilities. He was inducted in the IBHOF in 2009.

IBF bantamweight champion with 15 title defenses. He was champion for 7 years.

Rated P4P No.3 No.4 No.5 in various years.

Let's look deeper into his reign as IBF bantamweight champion.

He beat Kelvin Seabrooks for the fairly new IBF title. Kelvin Seabrooks was 25-13 at the time and finished 27-22 (losing almost every fight after OC until he retired)

He had 15 successful defenses but his opposition was extremely weak. He only fought two Ring rated bantamweights in his entire reign.

Kelvin Seabrooks was Ring No.4 at bantamweight. Billy Hardy who was ranked at No.10 only because he gave Canizales a tough fight but returned to obscurity after their 2nd fight.

He never unified and never became undisputed champion. He was a title holder.

He was defeated by the two good boxers he fought: Wilfredo Vasquez and Junior Jones.

He somehow managed to avoid every good bantamweight of his time except the aforementioned two who beat him at a higher weight.


To summarize:

IBF champion with 15 successful defenses.

Ring rated boxers defeated in boxing career [2]: Kelvin Seabrooks, Billy Hardy

Champions defeated [4]: Kelvin Seabrooks, Clarence Adams, Rolando Bohol, Prudencio Cardona

1. Kelvin Seabrooks

IBF champion with 3 successful defenses

2. Clarence Adams

18 years old when Canizales defeated him by bullshit stoppage.
7 years later
WBA super bantamweight champion with 2 successful defenses

3. Rolando Bohol

IBF flyweight champion with with 1 successful defense
Lost most of his fights before losing to Canizales and retired soon afterwards.

4. Prudencio Cardona

WBC flyweight champion with 0 successful defenses
On big losing streak before and after he lost to Canizales.


If that is the criteria for being inducted into the IBHOF how many active boxers get in?


Reevaluation 1: Eder Jofre
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Well i wouldn't say moving up to Featherweight and winning the European,Commonwealth and British titles was exactly returning to obscurity.A lot of good judges had him beating Canizales in the 1st fight.
ron u.k. is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 10:58 PM   #13
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
I applaud Casa for this thread. Even as a fan of Canizales's skillset, the position he now occupies in the ratings and affections of many is wholly unwarranted, if we do indeed prize resume above all else.

I very much look forward to the day the 'Reevaluation' spotlight is turned on the likes of Joe Calzaghe and Kostya Tszyu.


Yeah I'll be holding my breathe for those threads to come out!

Unlike the Jofre thread, this one actually has quite a bit of merit. Not because Canizales didn't face 'champions' but because he didn't face the best around him, which is compounded by the fact that they weren't actually all that good either...
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2011, 11:39 PM   #14
frankenfrank
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,326
vCash: 3600
Default Re: Reevaluation 2: Orlando Canizales

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casamayor122 View Post
I wouldn't call someone with 4 fights prime.
It just seems to me that despite of what is listed on boxrec he probably had more than 4 fights because of :
1) he was from Thailand
2) he was not very young by then
3) he got the title shots that "early"
frankenfrank is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013