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Old 07-04-2007, 08:36 AM   #1
Bummy Davis
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Default Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

The Big men of Ali's era were Foreman, Lyle, Foster(mac) Liston and most of those big guys were beaten by smaller men, Quarry DOMINATED Lyle, Foster, and Liston was already beaten & dropped by 179lb Marty Marshall, Louis KO'd every big man in his era (IT was the smaller Billy Conn and Arturo Godey who gave him problems) Foreman struggled with 185lb Peralta who was a decent fighter at best. In the 50's most of the bigger men were eliminated 6"3 Nino Valdez beaten by 180lb Harold Johnson,175lb Bob Satterfield, 6"2 Bob Baker KO'd by Archie Moore and Satterfield (who was KO'd in 2 by Charles) 6"3 Rex Layne Ko'd by Ezzard Charles and Marciano, Roland Lastarza beating 6'3 Dan Bucceroni (who had a 37-2 record) and 222lb Ralph Schneider and Big Bill Wilson 220lbs, Cleveland "BIG Cat "Williams was also KO"D in 3 rounds by 174lb Bob Satterfield in 1954 . As far as Ali, well he was badly dropped and hurt by 185lb Henry Cooper and was in the fight of his life vs (blown up 188lb Doug Jones) Ali was dropped and beaten by 205lb Joe Frazier and given a real rough fight vs 204lb Oscar Bonavena and an aged Ali lost to a 6-0-1 195lb Leon Spinks. So I think its not where the big men were NOT present in the ERA's, we know they were beaten by Fit, smaller men but where are the Fit,Fast,hardpunching smaller heavyweights today, I think STERIODS eliminated most of them Today, THOUGHTS
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Old 07-04-2007, 11:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

From roughly the 70's on, people naturally grew a lot bigger on average because of better nutrition. And i'm not even talking about steroids here, the entire population grew. As a result of that, there was a bigger talent pool in the 200+pound area. I think this lead to smaller guys having a rough time competing because while it's possible to overcome natural size disadvantages when there is a big talent difference, but when there isn't.... it's hard.


Another factor is the change from 15 to 12 rounds. This favors a boxer with a big punch but lesser stamina. This is a secondary reason though, as fighters in the late 70's and early 80's were already well over 200 pounds on average while still having 15 round fights.


And yes of course developed weight training programs + steroids made smaller fighters bulk up. Holyfield and Byrd are the best examples of being succesful with it, but those were the only ones with consistent succes. Moorers succes was against an other former cruiserweight and was embarrassingly ended by the weakest knockout punch i've ever seen, thrown by grandpa Foreman. Toney's record against heavyweight contenders is 1-2-1-1, hardly something impressive. Jones had an impressive win over Ruiz but didn't follow up so we can't really tell. I don't think his chin would've held up against the bigger cannons of the division at that point, Lewis or the Klitschko's.


And then there's the question in how usefull bulking up is. StoneHands, one of the finer posters on the board, said he'd take Listons natural strength over Holyfields artificial strength. While i don't agree with this, i think many do.

Also, the bulking up goes at cost of workrate and stamina. Holyfield has shown stamina problems and definitly went down in workrate since his days as a cruiserweight.
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
The Big men of Ali's era were Foreman, Lyle, Foster(mac) Liston and most of those big guys were beaten by smaller men, Quarry DOMINATED Lyle, Foster, and Liston was already beaten & dropped by 179lb Marty Marshall, Louis KO'd every big man in his era (IT was the smaller Billy Conn and Arturo Godey who gave him problems) Foreman struggled with 185lb Peralta who was a decent fighter at best. In the 50's most of the bigger men were eliminated 6"3 Nino Valdez beaten by 180lb Harold Johnson,175lb Bob Satterfield, 6"2 Bob Baker KO'd by Archie Moore and Satterfield (who was KO'd in 2 by Charles) 6"3 Rex Layne Ko'd by Ezzard Charles and Marciano, Roland Lastarza beating 6'3 Dan Bucceroni (who had a 37-2 record) and 222lb Ralph Schneider and Big Bill Wilson 220lbs, Cleveland "BIG Cat "Williams was also KO"D in 3 rounds by 174lb Bob Satterfield in 1954 . As far as Ali, well he was badly dropped and hurt by 185lb Henry Cooper and was in the fight of his life vs (blown up 188lb Doug Jones) Ali was dropped and beaten by 205lb Joe Frazier and given a real rough fight vs 204lb Oscar Bonavena and an aged Ali lost to a 6-0-1 195lb Leon Spinks. So I think its not where the big men were NOT present in the ERA's, we know they were beaten by Fit, smaller men but where are the Fit,Fast,hardpunching smaller heavyweights today, I think STERIODS eliminated most of them Today, THOUGHTS
I think a lot of it has do with SPEED. It seems like a slower bigger man in the 210-220 pound range can have a difficult time vs a much faster handed fighter who weighs in around 180-200 pounds. Liston, Lyle, Foreman, C. Williams and Foster were on the slower side. This allowed faster boxer types to bother or in rare cases defeat them. However, the smaller guys are out of luck vs if the bigger guy has equal to or better hand speed.


While the stamina of the fighters has been on a slide since the 1960's, hand speed has not. Modern heavyweights seem to a better chance having size, speed and power, and such a combination makes it difficult for the smaller fit-fast heavyweight to win. If you add in an even greater height, weight, and reach disparity the small fit-fast heavyweight is nearly an extinct animal.


The last fit-fast heavyweight champion was Michael Spinks, and he lasted but 91 seconds vs Mike Tyson. I suppose you could call Byrd a good fit-fast heavyweight. Yes, Byrd had the speed to defeat slower fighters like Tua, but when matched vs a much larger fighter with top hand speed, he was powerless against Vladimir Klitschko. If Tyson was slow like Foreman, and Klitshcko was slow like C Williams, both Spinks and Byrd have a chance to pull off the upset.



* For the purpose of this thread, I define fit-fast as an non power punching fighter since most of your examples outside of Satterfield fit that mold.
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Old 07-04-2007, 05:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

This is a great post, and although I didnt bring all the examples to mind (of smaller guys who have troubled the big men), I have thought about the general phenomonon before.

I believe the magic numbers for a HW are 6 foot-6 foot 3, and 15 stone. I base this on the remarkable consistency in size of who I consider to be the greatest HWs (Louis, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes). I have always assumed it is at this size range that deficits in speed are more than made up for by increased in power. Above this size, deficits in mobility and speed are too great.

As you may imagine I am not a fan of the modern super-heavy breed.

On this supposition, I still believe that a motivated and skilled 210 lb fighter beats a motivated and skilled 250lb man mountain, it is just that we dont have any decent examples of these guys any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
The Big men of Ali's era were Foreman, Lyle, Foster(mac) Liston and most of those big guys were beaten by smaller men, Quarry DOMINATED Lyle, Foster, and Liston was already beaten & dropped by 179lb Marty Marshall, Louis KO'd every big man in his era (IT was the smaller Billy Conn and Arturo Godey who gave him problems) Foreman struggled with 185lb Peralta who was a decent fighter at best. In the 50's most of the bigger men were eliminated 6"3 Nino Valdez beaten by 180lb Harold Johnson,175lb Bob Satterfield, 6"2 Bob Baker KO'd by Archie Moore and Satterfield (who was KO'd in 2 by Charles) 6"3 Rex Layne Ko'd by Ezzard Charles and Marciano, Roland Lastarza beating 6'3 Dan Bucceroni (who had a 37-2 record) and 222lb Ralph Schneider and Big Bill Wilson 220lbs, Cleveland "BIG Cat "Williams was also KO"D in 3 rounds by 174lb Bob Satterfield in 1954 . As far as Ali, well he was badly dropped and hurt by 185lb Henry Cooper and was in the fight of his life vs (blown up 188lb Doug Jones) Ali was dropped and beaten by 205lb Joe Frazier and given a real rough fight vs 204lb Oscar Bonavena and an aged Ali lost to a 6-0-1 195lb Leon Spinks. So I think its not where the big men were NOT present in the ERA's, we know they were beaten by Fit, smaller men but where are the Fit,Fast,hardpunching smaller heavyweights today, I think STERIODS eliminated most of them Today, THOUGHTS
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

I don't believe in magic numbers.

A guy like Marciano was only 185 pounds but he was extremely dominant. Lewis was 240 pound and also dominant. Ali and Tyson were in between and also dominant in their own right. Talent, dedication and heart is way more important.
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I don't believe in magic numbers.

A guy like Marciano was only 185 pounds but he was extremely dominant. Lewis was 240 pound and also dominant. Ali and Tyson were in between and also dominant in their own right. Talent, dedication and heart is way more important.
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Old 07-05-2007, 04:03 PM   #7
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

I was rewatching Holyfield-Foreman and there was an interesting conversation.

Somewhere during the 10th round when Holyfield was completely dominating, Merchant was saying that it would not have mattered whether Holyfield weighed 190 or 205 pound.

Merchant went on "sometimes they weigh the wrong things; they don't weigh ability and heart.". Merchant has some quality quotes for sure.
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Old 07-07-2007, 10:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

You should do. You may as well say you don't believe in gravity.

The laws that govern physiological and biomechanical changes as animals get bigger are described by a biological field called Scaling.

You should check it out sometime. It explains why elephants can't jump, why human gymnasts are so small and a host of other interesting phenomena.

It also explains why the best HWs tend to be a certain size. Those that aren't succeed in spite of these disadvantages, perhaps because they are particularly tough or they adopt an unusual style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I don't believe in magic numbers.

A guy like Marciano was only 185 pounds but he was extremely dominant. Lewis was 240 pound and also dominant. Ali and Tyson were in between and also dominant in their own right. Talent, dedication and heart is way more important.
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Old 07-07-2007, 10:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

Playing point guard in the NBA, and catching passes in the NFL.
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Old 07-07-2007, 10:51 PM   #10
NickHudson
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Default Re: Where are the Fit, Fast, Great Stamina, Small guys today

YES!

And perhaps also winning 100m Olympic titles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rekcutnevets
Playing point guard in the NBA, and catching passes in the NFL.
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