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Old 11-12-2011, 09:52 AM   #1
frankenfrank
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Default Impressions about d Murderers row

1) They were approximately all d same level , no 1 was really dominant .
They can b sorted , but it will b close
2) They had fixed fights like Jimmy Bivins vs Clearance Henry and bullshit
moments like Burley vs Holman Williams in 1943
3) They were close in their ability 2 Archie Wright & Ezzard Charles ,
It's just that Charles came at d right moment when most of them were
already on d decline and in addition he was bigger .
4) Not all of them were black (?) - Cocoa Kid , Jose Basora , Costello Cruz
5) They were about as good as d reigning champions of their era , were they better ?
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:56 PM   #2
Stonehands89
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Default Re: Impressions about d Murderers row

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
1) They were approximately all d same level , no 1 was really dominant .
They can b sorted , but it will b close
2) They had fixed fights like Jimmy Bivins vs Clearance Henry and bullshit
moments like Burley vs Holman Williams in 1943
3) They were close in their ability 2 Archie Wright & Ezzard Charles ,
It's just that Charles came at d right moment when most of them were
already on d decline and in addition he was bigger .
4) Not all of them were black (?) - Cocoa Kid , Jose Basora , Costello Cruz
5) They were about as good as d reigning champions of their era , were they better ?
List the fighters you include in Murderers' Row.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:12 PM   #3
frankenfrank
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Default Re: Impressions about d Murderers row

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
List the fighters you include in Murderers' Row.
I usually try 2 include as many as i can (while still trying 2 maintain some age & size relevance) when dealing with round robins .
Like I have no problem including Benitez & Barkley in d "fab 4"'s circa .
And then how can 1 ignore Robi Sims who fought Barkley , Hearns & Duran .


I know they r usually considered more or less these :
Charley Burley , Holman Williams , Lloyd Marshall , Oakland Billy Smith , Eddie booker , Bert Lytell , Leonard Morrow , John Holman , Curtis Sheppard .

But I don't find any problem in including some1 who had 5 fights or more against these guys and was avoided as well by d reigning champions , regardless of race .

Is there any reason not 2 include Charles , Wright & Cream in that list ? they were not given a shot @ d 175 lbs title during their time there except of Wright who got his shot at a late age 2 say d least .
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Impressions about the Murderers row

...................

Last edited by ecto55; 06-19-2012 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: Impressions about d Murderers row

So what exactly separates them from their other contemporaries at their time , size , lack of title shots and sometimes even race ?
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Old 11-13-2011, 12:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Impressions about d Murderers row

...............

Last edited by ecto55; 06-19-2012 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 11-13-2011, 06:45 PM   #7
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Default Re: Impressions about d Murderers row

Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Jack Chase, Eddie Booker, Elmer Ray, Aaron Wade and Bert Lytell.

I'd argue marshall shouldn't be included as he was duration lhw champ when bivins moved to heavyweight.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:28 PM   #8
Stonehands89
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Default Re: Impressions about d Murderers row

ecto55 is on the right track. I include the following...
Burley, Booker, Williams, Chase, Cocoa Kid, Lytell, Marshall, Wade.

I've been fooling around with conceptualizing Murderers' Row (loosely referred to as "murderers' row" by Budd Schulberg and called "Black Murderers' Row by Harry Otty) for some time now and so far, I'd offer the following:

1. African Americans
2. Skilled, dangerous, and rising from the welterweight, middleweight, and light heavyweight divisions.
3. Active during the 1930s-1940s (agree with ecto here, with some spill over into the 50s)
4. Campaigned on the West Coast (namely, California)
5. Fought at least 4 other members and had at least 2 victories over them.
6. Never granted an opportunity to challenge a world champion for the world championship.
7. Faced Archie Moore -the true "founder" of the set.

(lufcrazy -you make a good point but Marshall's duration "title" was in quotes even then and was probably the invention of a Cleveland matchmaker. Cocoa Kid also fought for the "World Championship" but one only recognized by Maryland which was then protesting Armstrong's poor choice of challengers. I don't count either.)
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Old 11-15-2011, 03:58 AM   #9
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Default Re: Impressions about d Murderers row

they were a group of American feared and avoided fighters, as good as any. But as I've said before they weren't alone!

People wrongly and foolishly forget the rest of the world when talking about American fighters, sure they were for the most part dominant among the bigger weights, but by no means alone.

ALL of Boxing's leading nations, Britain, Europe, Australia and of course the Latino countries (mostly smaller men there), had fighters who were just the same, feared, avoided, cheated.

Remember it is just the same too for foreign greats who "got the chance" to fight in America, they weren't always the best those countries had to offer, their murderers row were also left floundering in the background too.
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