Is Heart The Single Most Important Attribute If A Fighter Is To Become An ATG? - Page 3

mcvey · 07-09-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Not good, not a champ, an ATG? Can a fighter become and ATG without great heart?

Cant think of what I classify as an all time great who didnt have it ,so Ill say no he cant.

Mendoza · 07-09-2007, 03:49 PM

Some old time trainers aid the first thing they looked at was heart. Heart is not just effort; it’s the will to walk though the fire to win when the body wants to give in. Most, but not all great champions have heart.

ironchamp · 07-09-2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Well, the heart of a champion has always been a factor with the all time greats and a lot of fighter who could have been ATgreat suffered because of there lack of it. An ATG gets off the floor to win and overcomes adversity with heart,Louis, Marciano,Ali,Dempsey,Foreman,Frazier,Tunney have all done this

I disagree because your logic almost embraces imperfection in a fighter and basically implies that a great fighter has to get off the floor to win. Personally I put more stock in fighters who don't have to hit the canvas at all in order to win a fight.

Case in Point:

Which is the greater win?
Foreman TKO2 Frazier
or
Foreman KO10 Moorer

I obviously pick his win over Frazier but YOUR LOGIC suggests that because he was able to overcome odds or adversity in a fight where things were not going his way that the Moorer win should be ranked higher.

You see heart is a great attribute and it is certainly an important building block and component of an ATG fighter but IMO achievement and talent should be placed before heart simply because they are more capable of being quantified than heart. You cannot fully be objective about heart in the same manner as talent and achievement. For instance to measure heart one has to take everything into account not just conditions in the ring but conditions that venture into the innermost thoughts of a fighter, what they are going through personally, emotionally. Someone can get up from a KD or on a Verge of a KO and reverse a fight but someone who has gone through a traumatic experience or hardship in thier personal life yet still show up and give it thier all has just as much heart.

To be cont.

Chaney · 07-09-2007, 07:42 PM

Firstly, you want the talent, or at least some good building blocks, or you aint going nowhere.

Then as a good fighter, you can do very well, defeating average competition. But to get beyond good to great you have to also have heart.

Lets face it, any ATG has talent and heart. Both are needed to gain this exceptional status. Different ATGs had slightly different balances of both.

A couple of quotes on the subject:

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

"To be a legendary fighter, you have to beat the opponent it is impossible for you to beat." - Chris Eubank (referring to Benn vs McClellan)

ironchamp · 07-09-2007, 07:58 PM

I disagree because with you BummyDavis because your logic almost embraces imperfection in a fighter and basically implies that a great fighter has to get off the floor to win. Personally I put more stock in fighters who don't have to hit the canvas at all in order to win a fight.

Case in Point:

Which is the greater win?
Foreman TKO2 Frazier
or
Foreman KO10 Moorer

I obviously pick his win over Frazier but YOUR LOGIC suggests that because he was able to overcome odds or adversity in a fight where things were not going his way that the Moorer win should be ranked higher.

You see heart is a great attribute and it is certainly an important building block and component of an ATG fighter but IMO achievement and talent should be placed before heart simply because they are more capable of being quantified than heart. You cannot fully be objective about heart in the same manner as talent and achievement. For instance to measure heart one has to take everything into account not just conditions in the ring but conditions that venture into the innermost thoughts of a fighter, what they are going through personally, emotionally. Someone can get up from a KD in a fight they are losing or on a Verge of a KO and reverse a fight but someone who has gone through a traumatic experience or emotional or physical hardship in thier personal life yet still show up and give it thier all has just as much heart.

People with demons, emotionally unstable people, People with physical defects or problems that force them not to give it thier all...

Look at Gerald McClellan. He fought his heart out vs. Nigel Benn. But at the end of the fight they called him a quitter. The commentators, Fans, Don fucking King...But look what happened afterwards. If Gerald McClellan had left the arena and died in a car crash instantly before his condition was discovered people would have called him a quitter. They would have said he lacked heart and he'd probably get slaughtered right here on ESB on H2H match ups because they'll say "if the going gets tough, etc..."

Heart isnt the ability to absorb punishment in war, thats durability.
Heart isnt the ability to get off the floor to win a fight, thats focus and determination and it also takes skill.

Heart is overcoming your shortcomings and putting forth the best possible effort that you can put forth regardless of the circumstance and regardless of the outcome. Thats heart.

07-09-2007, 03:49 PM	#32
Mendoza Dominating a decade East Side VIP Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 14,746 vCash: 1000	Re: Is Heart The Single Most Important Attribute If A Fighter Is To Become An ATG? Some old time trainers aid the first thing they looked at was heart. Heart is not just effort; it’s the will to walk though the fire to win when the body wants to give in. Most, but not all great champions have heart.
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07-09-2007, 07:42 PM	#34
Chaney Mystery and Imagination ESB Addict Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Starving in the belly of a whale Posts: 4,237 vCash: 1000	Re: Is Heart The Single Most Important Attribute If A Fighter Is To Become An ATG? Firstly, you want the talent, or at least some good building blocks, or you aint going nowhere. Then as a good fighter, you can do very well, defeating average competition. But to get beyond good to great you have to also have heart. Lets face it, any ATG has talent and heart. Both are needed to gain this exceptional status. Different ATGs had slightly different balances of both. A couple of quotes on the subject: "A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey "To be a legendary fighter, you have to beat the opponent it is impossible for you to beat." - Chris Eubank (referring to Benn vs McClellan)
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07-09-2007, 07:58 PM	#35
ironchamp Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York Posts: 3,645 vCash: 1230	Re: Is Heart The Single Most Important Attribute If A Fighter Is To Become An ATG? I disagree because with you BummyDavis because your logic almost embraces imperfection in a fighter and basically implies that a great fighter has to get off the floor to win. Personally I put more stock in fighters who don't have to hit the canvas at all in order to win a fight. Case in Point: Which is the greater win? Foreman TKO2 Frazier or Foreman KO10 Moorer I obviously pick his win over Frazier but YOUR LOGIC suggests that because he was able to overcome odds or adversity in a fight where things were not going his way that the Moorer win should be ranked higher. You see heart is a great attribute and it is certainly an important building block and component of an ATG fighter but IMO achievement and talent should be placed before heart simply because they are more capable of being quantified than heart. You cannot fully be objective about heart in the same manner as talent and achievement. For instance to measure heart one has to take everything into account not just conditions in the ring but conditions that venture into the innermost thoughts of a fighter, what they are going through personally, emotionally. Someone can get up from a KD in a fight they are losing or on a Verge of a KO and reverse a fight but someone who has gone through a traumatic experience or emotional or physical hardship in thier personal life yet still show up and give it thier all has just as much heart. People with demons, emotionally unstable people, People with physical defects or problems that force them not to give it thier all... Look at Gerald McClellan. He fought his heart out vs. Nigel Benn. But at the end of the fight they called him a quitter. The commentators, Fans, Don fucking King...But look what happened afterwards. If Gerald McClellan had left the arena and died in a car crash instantly before his condition was discovered people would have called him a quitter. They would have said he lacked heart and he'd probably get slaughtered right here on ESB on H2H match ups because they'll say "if the going gets tough, etc..." Heart isnt the ability to absorb punishment in war, thats durability. Heart isnt the ability to get off the floor to win a fight, thats focus and determination and it also takes skill. Heart is overcoming your shortcomings and putting forth the best possible effort that you can put forth regardless of the circumstance and regardless of the outcome. Thats heart.
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