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Old 12-18-2011, 03:22 PM   #151
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division (Flyweights Updated-September 23)

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Originally Posted by El Bujia View Post
So, what, you just assume every era is of the same level of quality as any other? If you're doing such extensive research on them (quite speedily for someone who's supposed to be putting so much time into it) surely you'd realise that's far from the case.

Has your research been relegated to researching rankings and paper accomplishments at the expense of watching actual film?
Rather I don't assume one era's quality is significantly stronger such that it makes a difference. Ruling an era is ruling an era. It aint the only thing I rank on obviously, resume plays a huge part as does perceived h2h ability.

Well I started my hw thread how ever long ago I started it (no idea off the top of my head but I think it was 6 month or so ago). So I spend maybe a month on the major divisions and a week on the newer divisions. The speed I post the results up is just arbitary because I do my research on microsoft word and then copy-paste it.

Maybe a month is too speedy and not enough time for a major division, some divisions are harder than others and some are fairly easy.

Of course I appreciate that some era's are stacked and some aren't but that doesn't mean a guy with some success in a strong era would have significantly more in a different era there are just too many variables. Could jake have ruled from 95-2005? I doubt it. H2h i'd favour hopkins over jake and the resume of jake is obviously better as a mw.

No I watch as much film as possible and I spend most evenings watching old fights whilst she watches soaps. The only fights i've put on ice are casamayor's losses at sfw.
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Old 12-18-2011, 03:44 PM   #152
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

The way I do it.

How good was the era?

How good were they in there era?

I.e: better to come fourth out of ten in a Worlds Strongest Man contest than first in a spastic race.
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Old 12-18-2011, 05:53 PM   #153
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

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The way I do it.

How good was the era?

How good were they in there era?

I.e: better to come fourth out of ten in a Worlds Strongest Man contest than first in a spastic race.
and that's a perfectly reasonable way of doing it.

I asked how good is their resume, where they rank in my mythical round robin scenario of the division and what did they actually achieve in their careers. Plus a bonus for intangibles.

I.e. Better to have success in your own era than mythical success in another era.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:10 AM   #154
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
and that's a perfectly reasonable way of doing it.

I asked how good is their resume, where they rank in my mythical round robin scenario of the division and what did they actually achieve in their careers. Plus a bonus for intangibles.

I.e. Better to have success in your own era than mythical success in another era.
Hold on....you rank on mythical matchups but not on mythical eras?

Somethinhg very weird here. my rankings mean nothing in terms of 'would he beat him' but are just what the fighter actually achieved in their era/how strong that era was.

Sorry if I'm over complicating things but I seem a little lost mate
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Old 12-19-2011, 11:11 AM   #155
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Hold on....you rank on mythical matchups but not on mythical eras?

Somethinhg very weird here. my rankings mean nothing in terms of 'would he beat him' but are just what the fighter actually achieved in their era/how strong that era was.

Sorry if I'm over complicating things but I seem a little lost mate
Yeah my overall ranking of a fighter is based on 3 criteria: what they did, who they beat, how well their style matches up against other greats. Then any intangibles.

Each to their own eh?

Gee I love the subjective nature of boxing
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Old 12-19-2011, 12:21 PM   #156
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

Fair dos, I just go by what actually happened.

Yours is more like 'who is the hardest Power Ranger'?
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:24 PM   #157
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

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Fair dos, I just go by what actually happened.

Yours is more like 'who is the hardest Power Ranger'?
No it's more like:

Blue power ranger and red power ranger saved the world the same amount of times so how to split them? Well I think red power ranger kicks blue's arse so i'll give him the nod.
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Old 12-19-2011, 02:59 PM   #158
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

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No it's more like:

Blue power ranger and red power ranger saved the world the same amount of times so how to split them? Well I think red power ranger kicks blue's arse so i'll give him the nod.
Okay, fair enough.

But what if Red Ranger is a Bantamweight and Blue Ranger is a Heavyweight.

I really don't like 'if they were the same size....' arguments. Do you?
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:05 PM   #159
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

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Okay, fair enough.

But what if Red Ranger is a Bantamweight and Blue Ranger is a Heavyweight.

I really don't like 'if they were the same size....' arguments. Do you?
I absolutely detest them arguments.

But this hypothetical is something i'm currently unsure of in a p4p ranking. I'm torn between comparing both ranger's h2h prowess within their natural division, or a simpler skill analysis based on available footage. I can still compare resume and achievement but comparing ability is more difficult.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:17 PM   #160
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

Just go with what they did and when it's hard to rank one over another, go with what you like.

As McGrain put so well 'Boxing is music, not maths'.

For a maths teacher maybe a little bit harder to stomach
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:19 PM   #161
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

For example: Is it really fair ranking Walker over Moore or vice versa? No, but I ain't having joint 11th place, so I'll go Walker based on Welter to Heavy.

Just a hypothetical but as you're saying, when you get to the whittling down the brackets, there's really nothing between most of 'em.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:41 PM   #162
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Just go with what they did and when it's hard to rank one over another, go with what you like.

As McGrain put so well 'Boxing is music, not maths'.

For a maths teacher maybe a little bit harder to stomach
Part of me died when he said that
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Old 12-19-2011, 04:52 PM   #163
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

But it's true though, there's no formula, don't stress yourself over it.

If that's a way of you picking 'who you like' then fair enough, but if it's close I usually say 'what impresses me more' rather than 'what are the impressive things these two have done' if that makes any sense.
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:15 PM   #164
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
But it's true though, there's no formula, don't stress yourself over it.

If that's a way of you picking 'who you like' then fair enough, but if it's close I usually say 'what impresses me more' rather than 'what are the impressive things these two have done' if that makes any sense.
There's always a formula out there

It's more that some guys whole legacies within a division are built upon being a "h2h monster" so I just like to recognise that accolade (i.e. Liston at hw, hearns at ww, jones at smw etc)
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:35 PM   #165
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Default Re: ESB Classic Forum All-Time Rankings by Division - P4P Survey Updated in October 2

Hearns ranks highly based on his mental career! Welter to Light Heavy at the top level.

Liston ranks outside the top 10 Heavys for me, so gets nowhere on my top 100.

Jones gets somewhere in the top 100. But nowhere near the top 10 in any of the classic 8.
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