better top 5: Ward or Calzaghe?

[Imperial1]

Originally Posted by BlackBrenny

Yeah Kessler went and regained the WBA title quite easily after Joe vacated.. shows how good a win it was when he outclassed him.

Jeff Lacy was hyped.. but was also IBF Champ and picked to win by most..dont believe me? read this

I didn't need to read this I picked Joe by clinic after watching the Lacy Sheika fight who imo Sheika got robbed but still made Lacy look like an ameteur .The only reason Lacy was so hyped was because he reminded people of Mike Tyson ..

The back lash was typical for Joe since he had the stigma of being a protected home fighter ,That Lacy fight was an easy win for one reason Lacy was never that good of a boxer .It was similar to Hopkins Pavlik .Had Joe fought Pavlik the world would have been witness to a simlar Lacy type peformance .

Ward has fought up until this point better comp and he's done it in a shorter amount of time . The only leverage Joe has is his title defenses .

Ward has already unified 2/3 rds of the belts so he's heading in the right direction .

[klion22]

Originally Posted by Rumsfeld

Right now, I have to give the nod to Joe.

Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is still a better win than anything on Ward's ledger.

It's an unfair comparison, though, because Calzaghe's career is over and Ward's is in the early stages still.

This.

[BlackBrenny]

Originally Posted by Imperial1

I didn't need to read this I picked Joe by clinic after watching the Lacy Sheika fight who imo Sheika got robbed but still made Lacy look like an ameteur .The only reason Lacy was so hyped was because he reminded people of Mike Tyson ..

The back lash was typical for Joe since he had the stigma of being a protected home fighter ,That Lacy fight was an easy win for one reason Lacy was never that good of a boxer .It was similar to Hopkins Pavlik .Had Joe fought Pavlik the world would have been witness to a simlar Lacy type peformance .

Ward has fought up until this point better comp and he's done it in a shorter amount of time . The only leverage Joe has is his title defenses .

Ward has already unified 2/3 rds of the belts so he's heading in the right direction .

Then we can wait a while BEFORE jumping the gun and putting him before Calzaghe, because right now he doesn't win.

I didn't say at the end of Wards career he couldn't be ahead of Calzaghe, just that right now he ISN'T. No way

fact is, wins over Abraham and Green do not beat wins over a CHAMPION in Lacy, these guys were never supermiddleweight champs, Lacy was, and he was favoured

[Strike]

Calzaghe and your choice of his top 5 is way off. I see that originally it included Manfredo.

Bika is not in his top 5 either.

Hopkins, Kessler, Lacy, Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Brewer, Mitchell are all better wins that Bika.

That is 8 fighters. And I'd pick most of them to beat someone like Abraham too.

[whopperdong]

Originally Posted by dubace

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Thats the one the guy waffles abit but the evidence is there. get's even better.

[Nonito Smoak]

Originally Posted by Rumsfeld

Calzaghe's win against Hopkins was close, but the Hopkins win is FAR BETTER than any of Ward's wins, IMHO.

When considering the context of the win over Hopkins, which I'd say at least 40% of people disagree with the scoring, against the thorough ass beating Ward laid on Kessler, which 0% of people disagree with the scoring, well, I'd go with a push.

[Brit Sillynanny]

Originally Posted by dubace

you guys are so dumb. did you even see the sheika fight? it was stopped from a cut that opened after a headbutt. then calzaghe targeted it against the no defense sheika and got it stopped. sheika was still giving calzaghe a good fight. wasn't much dominating at all.

Correct.

Sheika/Calzaghe was the fight after the ridiculously crappy performance by Joe where he absolutely struggled for twelve rounds against the incomparably horrible non-athlete David Starie (who is like watching a disabled child perform in a sporting competition).

Can't upload Starie/Calzaghe and it doesn't look it is on youtube but here's Starie against Baker a mere six months before he fought Calz so those unfamiliar can see Starie and what kind of fighter could make Calz struggle for twelve rounds ...

This time period is happens to be when these fighters were very similar in age to Andre Ward today. Anyone think this David Starie could go twelve rounds with Ward? How about with Froch or Kessler?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhwQBFSn32c[/ame]

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The Sheika/Calz fight could be compared to Kessler/Ward in the sense that there were head clashes except Joe got another one of his many quick ref assists ending the fight in the fifth. There were two inadvertent (just like in the K/W fight) head clashes of which Sheika got the worst of the impacts. Unless one was only reading boxrec and not watching the fight Sheika shakes his head and paws at his eye area but the ref didn't give it a thought. Sheika didn't get off well in the fight but it was apparent from their relative skill levels that this had the potential to be a great fight. Joe was not substantively better than this version of Sheika. Of course he never gave a thought to seeking competition and giving a rematch. This is a rematch that absolutely should have occurred - but it would have meant facing a fighter that was very comparable and the risk was simply too much for Joe and Frank to consider again. With the cut and the blood Sheika knew the quick end to the fight was coming and gamely tried to up the tempo. After the ref stoppage, he pushes the ref (Rodriguez) away in absolute disgust and Joe received a somewhat tainted bull shit win. The biggest losers were the fans ...

[dubace]

Originally Posted by Strike

Calzaghe and your choice of his top 5 is way off. I see that originally it included Manfredo.

Bika is not in his top 5 either.

Hopkins, Kessler, Lacy, Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Brewer, Mitchell are all better wins that Bika.

That is 8 fighters. And I'd pick most of them to beat someone like Abraham too.

Reid is questionable. Joe should've rematched, but bitched out of a tough fight. for some reason that doesn't sound surprising.

[whopperdong]

Originally Posted by BlackBrenny

NO! you're reaching, looking for shit that just isnt there

just watch the whole series. at times he does clutch at straws but on the whole raises very good points.

[whopperdong]

Originally Posted by dubace

Reid is questionable. Joe should've rematched, but bitched out of a tough fight. for some reason that doesn't sound surprising.

exactly.

+ seemed like reid was fighting the ref and calz.

[dubace]

Originally Posted by Brit Sillynanny

Correct.

Sheika/Calzaghe was the fight after the ridiculously crappy performance by Joe where he absolutely struggled for twelve rounds against the incomparably horrible non-athlete David Starie (who is like watching a disabled child perform in a sporting competition).

Can't upload Starie/Calzaghe and it doesn't look it is on youtube but here's Starie against Baker a mere six months before he fought Calz so those unfamiliar can see Starie and what kind of fighter could make Calz struggle for twelve rounds ... lmao

This time period is happens to be when these fighters were very similar in age to Andre Ward today. Anyone think this David Starie could go twelve rounds with Ward?

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

------------


The Sheika/Calz fight could be compared to Kessler/Ward in the sense that there were head clashes except Joe got another one of his many quick ref assists ending the fight in the fifth. There were two inadvertent (just like in the K/W fight) head clashes of which Sheika got the worst of the impacts. Unless one was only reading boxrec and not watching the fight Sheika shakes his head and paws at his eye area but the ref didn't give it a thought. Sheika didn't get off well in the fight but it was apparent from their relative skill levels that this had the potential to be a great fight. Joe was not substantively better than this version of Sheika. Of course he never gave a thought to seeking competition and giving a rematch. This is a rematch that absolutely should have occurred - but it would have meant facing a fighter that was very comparable and the risk was simply too much for Joe and Frank to consider again. With the cut and the blood Sheika knew the quick end to the fight was coming and gamely tried to up the tempo. After the ref stoppage, he pushes the ref (Rodriguez) away in absolute disgust and Joe received a tainted bull shit win. The biggest losers were the fans ...

THANK YOU!!! good to see someone who knows more about boxing than what a damn record says.

[BlackBrenny]

Originally Posted by whopperdong

exactly.

+ seemed like reid was fighting the ref and calz.

even though the fight was in Reids home country, England, and not Calz


guess Calz aint gonna get any credit in here.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ge2oCEH6NI[/ame]

[BlackBrenny]

Originally Posted by Brit Sillynanny

Correct.

Sheika/Calzaghe was the fight after the ridiculously crappy performance by Joe where he absolutely struggled for twelve rounds against the incomparably horrible non-athlete David Starie (who is like watching a disabled child perform in a sporting competition).

Can't upload Starie/Calzaghe and it doesn't look it is on youtube but here's Starie against Baker a mere six months before he fought Calz so those unfamiliar can see Starie and what kind of fighter could make Calz struggle for twelve rounds ... lmao

This time period is happens to be when these fighters were very similar in age to Andre Ward today. Anyone think this David Starie could go twelve rounds with Ward? How about with Froch or Kessler?

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

------------


The Sheika/Calz fight could be compared to Kessler/Ward in the sense that there were head clashes except Joe got another one of his many quick ref assists ending the fight in the fifth. There were two inadvertent (just like in the K/W fight) head clashes of which Sheika got the worst of the impacts. Unless one was only reading boxrec and not watching the fight Sheika shakes his head and paws at his eye area but the ref didn't give it a thought. Sheika didn't get off well in the fight but it was apparent from their relative skill levels that this had the potential to be a great fight. Joe was not substantively better than this version of Sheika. Of course he never gave a thought to seeking competition and giving a rematch. This is a rematch that absolutely should have occurred - but it would have meant facing a fighter that was very comparable and the risk was simply too much for Joe and Frank to consider again. With the cut and the blood Sheika knew the quick end to the fight was coming and gamely tried to up the tempo. After the ref stoppage, he pushes the ref (Rodriguez) away in absolute disgust and Joe received a tainted bull shit win. The biggest losers were the fans ...

Look at his fucking eyes, do you not think the fucking hooks to the face cut open Sheikas RIGHT then LEFT eyebrow? I mean, you must have a head the size of saturn to cut open a guy like that...unless it was caused by punches...Oh wait..it was...

[Nonito Smoak]

Originally Posted by Rumsfeld

Right now, I have to give the nod to Joe.

Calzaghe's win over Hopkins is still a better win than anything on Ward's ledger.

It's an unfair comparison, though, because Calzaghe's career is over and Ward's is in the early stages still.

Yes, 100% true.

I love Ward and have pegged him as a future superstar the moment the Kessler fight unfolded, (the people that it has taken this long for them to realize, you've mucked up predicting one of the most sure fire stars in years and should feel like a straight up fool). But it is quite clear that Calzaghe has the better top 5 and better all around resume. Also, I will say that it is quite clear that Ward will soon amass a resume which will surpass Calzaghe (barring a pre-30 year old retirement or severe career altering injury). The only argument will soon be Calzaghe's zero, but I'm pretty sure the boxing community has been clear ever since Mayweather started staying on the top of the p4p lists year after year that being undefeated means nothing and likely indicates you are a king of ducking (not my opinion, but the clear consensus from what I read from the folks on this site and others).

[whopperdong]

Originally Posted by BlackBrenny

even though the fight was in Reids home country, England, and not Calz


guess Calz aint gonna get any credit in here.


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mayb so but that doesnt change wat happened.
calz was allowed to hold and lean all over reid and who do u think gets the point deductions?

plus the ref always allows calz to move away from the clinches but physically holds up reid. was something i found strange watchin that fight.

also reid and calz were managed by the same person who once said to reid calz is my guy for the next decade or something along the lines of that so not unimaginable he would make sure calz is favoured.