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Old 02-05-2008, 05:54 PM   #61
janitor
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

[quote]
[quote=radianttwilight]
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Originally Posted by janitor

1) Greb's weight fluctuated alot throughout his career. If we're talking 155-160lb Greb, I'd pick Haye over him without much hesistance, even if he does have some problems making weight.
Presumably if Greb is fighting Mr Haye he will be able to fight at cruiserweight which is his typical catchweight mass.

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2) That's the other likely scenario, but remember, this is Evander Holyfield - A man who cannot avoid the brawl if his life depends on it
You might have a point.

If the cruiserweight Holyfield fights a smart fight he wins.

In fact I am his trainer here and he must do as I say.

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3) Maybe I misunderstood your question? If "finish fight" means it continues until somebody gets KO'd (as I thought it did), then I would have my money on Holyfield to knock him out inside of twelve rounds.
How exactly?

Jeffries has a near Chuvalo grade chin and there is no such thing as a TKO in this era.

Add to that the fact that Jeffries can just do a wrestling throw if he is in trouble.

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I'm assuming Jeffries' gameplan would be to physically dominate Holyfield like he did his other opponents, but there's a real serious problem here - Jeffries couldn't dominate supermiddleweight Fitz, who wasn't even considered a physical powerhouse among men of his weight.
But he did dominate him twice.

When Jeffries fought Fitz for the title he was a novice with a dozen fights.

He was being thrown to the wolves.

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How can he overpower an iron-chinned guy that's his size and that may well be physically stronger (albeit, with the possible assistance of steroids)?
Jeffries in adition to being a heavyweight champion also fought world class wrestlers including champions. In an era when wrestling moves are alowed he would likley beat Holyfield simply on his wrestling background.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:14 PM   #62
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

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Originally Posted by janitor
Greb didnt just beat Tunney in the first fight he shut him out.
Some ringside observers say that the chopping left that broke Tunney's nose in 2 places was an intentional headbutt. That could have been it right there. Was it possibly a legit shot? Yes, but Greb wasn't a puncher, so who knows. Kid McPartland was the ref and he was warning Greb throughout the fight for holding and hitting, butting, cuffing, etc. but he did nothing else.

Anyway, it's hard to fight when you nose is shattered in the first 15 seconds!

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Originally Posted by janitor
He didnt just beat Tunney once either.

When you cut through the cr4p blind Greb clearly won fights 1 and 2 with 3 and 4 clearly going to Tunney. Historians are split on fight 4.

So depending on which papers you follow Greb is 2-3, 3-2, or 2-2-1 against Tunney
If you tease it out, you can also get to 3-1-1 or 3-2 for Tunney.

For the rematch, Greb was mourning the iminent death of his wife -whom he loved. Meanwhile Leonard himself stopped by Tunney's camp and gave him some tips -one was to go to the body. Tunney was getting over a flu and was exhausted in the middle rounds but finished strong and started stronger -with a body attack that forced Greb to grab and seemed to take his wind out a few times.

A survey was taken at ringside after the fight of writers by the NY Herald -4 had Greb winning, 4 had Tunney winning and 5 called it a draw. Hype Igoe was probably the most renowned writer at the time in NY and he stated that Greb rightfully lost because of his constant dirty fighting -butting, clinching and holding, holding and hitting, etc, and that Tunney was the one landing the most "honest" shots.

Greb? He said "I was jobbed."

Refs were reluctant to penalize Greb as much as he should have been. He was dirtier than Fitzie and Golota put together and I think that he intimidated the refs. He had fanatics in the crowd too and Greb was known to attack refs who did call him on his extracurricular ring activity. Remember also that back then there wasn't exactly a premium placed on body punching. So much of Tunney's work downstairs was overlooked.

Three clearly went to Tunney, no argument there. The fourth was considered a draw in the newspapers, and the fifth went clearly to Tunney by my estimation. Most boxing writers gave Tunney 7 or 8 of the 10 rounds because of Benny Leonard's sage advice.

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Originally Posted by janitor
I might have to watch that fight before responding.
Have a party because that fight is a beauty. Perhaps the best since Manila.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:29 PM   #63
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Some ringside observers say that the chopping left that broke Tunney's nose in 2 places was an intentional headbutt. That could have been it right there. Was it possibly a legit shot? Yes, but Greb wasn't a puncher, so who knows. Kid McPartland was the ref and he was warning Greb throughout the fight for holding and hitting, butting, cuffing, etc. but he did nothing else.

Anyway, it's hard to fight when you nose is shattered in the first 15 seconds!
It wasnt just the nose.

Both Tunneys eyebrows were split open, bleeding, and his face was unrecognisable.

Tunney himself said that Greb outclassed him and that he simply couldnt land on him cleanly.

Either way you will be hard put to find a contemporary newspaper article that says anything but Greb beat the cr4p out of Tunney.

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If you tease it out, you can also get to 3-1-1 or 3-2 for Tunney.
Not really.

Not unless you hand pick your sources to favour Tunney.

If I had hand picked sources to favour Greb it would have been a clear 3-2 for Greb.

The historical data is-

2 Greb

2 Tunney

1 Ambiguous

Quote:
For the rematch, Greb was mourning the iminent death of his wife -whom he loved. Meanwhile Leonard himself stopped by Tunney's camp and gave him some tips -one was to go to the body. Tunney was getting over a flu and was exhausted in the middle rounds but finished strong and started stronger -with a body attack that forced Greb to grab and seemed to take his wind out a few times.

A survey was taken at ringside after the fight of writers by the NY Herald -4 had Greb winning, 4 had Tunney winning and 5 called it a draw. Hype Igoe was probably the most renowned writer at the time in NY and he stated that Greb rightfully lost because of his constant dirty fighting -butting, clinching and holding, holding and hitting, etc, and that Tunney was the one landing the most "honest" shots.

Greb? He said "I was jobbed."
This is the conclusion of most historians in the 21st century

Greb won

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Refs were reluctant to penalize Greb as much as he should have been. He was dirtier than Fitzie and Golota put together
No question

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and I think that he intimidated the refs. He had fanatics in the crowd too and Greb was known to attack refs who did call him on his extracurricular ring activity.
Fanatics in the crowd do not necisarily act on the orders of the fighter any more than British football hooligans act upon the orders of the team they suport.

This was nothing unique to Greb. It was a feature of being a reff in that era.

There was one ocasion when a reff beaT up a boxer.

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Remember also that back then there wasn't exactly a premium placed on body punching. So much of Tunney's work downstairs was overlooked.
Body punching was certainly more valued by trainers back thenn

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Three clearly went to Tunney, no argument there. The fourth was considered a draw in the newspapers, and the fifth went clearly to Tunney by my estimation. Most boxing writers gave Tunney 7 or 8 of the 10 rounds because of Benny Leonard's sage advice.
So 2-2-? maybe

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Have a party because that fight is a beauty. Perhaps the best since Manila.
Look forward to it.
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:56 PM   #64
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

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Originally Posted by janitor
It wasnt just the nose.
It was in the first 15 seconds! It was a bloodbath after that. This may be the best example in history of the boxer being destroyed by the swarmer. I still have a problem with the incorrigibility of Greb and the ref's allowances when it came to dirty tactics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Not really.

Not unless you hand pick your sources to favour Tunney.

If I had hand picked sources to favour Greb it would have been a clear 3-2 for Greb.

The historical data is-

2 Greb

2 Tunney

1 Ambiguous

This is the conclusion of most historians in the 21st century
That is not "historical data" -that is opinion. And the opinions are split depending on the sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Fanatics in the crowd do not necisarily act on the orders of the fighter any more than British football hooligans act upon the orders of the team they suport.
No one said they did. The point was the ref may well have felt intimidated by the roaring crowd and/or by Greb's reputation. Greb was indulged, and that is beyond dispute. He would have been disqualified today for more than a few bouts if he didn't make adjustments.

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Originally Posted by janitor
So 2-2-? maybe
Sure, maybe.
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Old 02-06-2008, 07:16 AM   #65
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who

[quote=janitor]
Quote:




The cruiserweight version of Evander Holyfield beats the heavyweight version in a catchweight fight.
In that case it's neither the Cruiserweight version of Holyfield nor the heavyweight version
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:41 AM   #66
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
It was in the first 15 seconds! It was a bloodbath after that. This may be the best example in history of the boxer being destroyed by the swarmer. I still have a problem with the incorrigibility of Greb and the ref's allowances when it came to dirty tactics.
The dirty tactics you speak of were prety ubiquitous back then. If you couldnt deal with them you had no future as a profesional boxer rightly or wrongly.

It was quite common for the reff to turn a blind eye if both parties seemed equaly intent on fouling one another. When Fritzie Zivic fought Henry Armstron for the title Donovan gave up counting the fouls and actualy said-

"OK boys if thats how you want to doi fine by me".

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That is not "historical data" -that is opinion. And the opinions are split depending on the sources.
There are split opinions on most close fights of the period. If the overwhelming majority of papers call it one way it is probably sound practice to asume that is what happened.

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No one said they did. The point was the ref may well have felt intimidated by the roaring crowd and/or by Greb's reputation. Greb was indulged, and that is beyond dispute. He would have been disqualified today for more than a few bouts if he didn't make adjustments.
Today Greb would likley loose his boxing liscence if he conducted himself the way he did in his own time. I would not say that he was particularly indulged by the standards of the time or that it was particularly unusual for a reff or second to end up in the firing line.
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Old 02-06-2008, 09:43 AM   #67
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who

[quote=JohnThomas1]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor

In that case it's neither the Cruiserweight version of Holyfield nor the heavyweight version
OK lets just say that we bring the heavyweight limit back down to 175 for the purpouses of this fight.

All I want to do is get the 190 lb Holyfield in the same ring as the 210 lb version.
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Old 02-06-2008, 05:19 PM   #68
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
The dirty tactics you speak of were prety ubiquitous back then. If you couldnt deal with them you had no future as a profesional boxer rightly or wrongly.
You're minimizing Greb's behavior. It was obnoxious even for the time and is why his repuation was what it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
It was quite common for the reff to turn a blind eye if both parties seemed equaly intent on fouling one another. When Fritzie Zivic fought Henry Armstron for the title Donovan gave up counting the fouls and actualy said-

"OK boys if thats how you want to doi fine by me".
That does not apply to Tunney -who rarely fouled or complained. The most he did against Greb was toss him to the canvas a few times in the rematch when Greb clinched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
There are split opinions on most close fights of the period. If the overwhelming majority of papers call it one way it is probably sound practice to asume that is what happened.
I would look at the most credible writers and not simply take a count or every backalley rag that covered the fight. Part of the reason why I do not believe that the "newspaper decisions" back then are reliable sources is because it was common practice to pay off writers for favorable coverage or get ignored. Tunney learned this the hard way earlier in his career.
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