Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > British Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-06-2012, 05:02 AM   #16
slip&counter
Gimme some X's and O's
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In that 3 feet of stew again...
Posts: 12,448
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkillspayBills View Post
Recently i've noticed so many fighters not knowing how to fight a southpaw. From the most simplest aspect.

It's like there either not told or don't care or forget to put there lead foot on outside of the southpaw's lead foot. Cunningham last night did it because he's a listener and a very good boxer.

Just baffles me the amount of times i see orthodox fighters standing on inside at range getting peppered by lead lefts.
Amazing how much they struggle ain't it? even someone as technically adept as Floyd has his problems. It's that different look and things coming from the opposite side. When all things are even southpaws have a advantage no doubt. Not only because orthodox fighters are not used to seeing them often (btw i don't know if that's the main reason, there's more southpaws now than ever before and it should be standard to get plenty of sparring with one, back in the day it must've been more difficult because there just wasn't that many around). But i think the main reason orthodox fighters struggle is because the lead hands are so aligned that it makes it very difficult to catch a skillful southpaw with your jab and time him. Most of your punches coming from that angle get easily deflected or slipped.

The thing i don't understand is how orthodox fighters don't use their advantages. They have the same advantages that southpaws have over them. The same problem the orthodox stance sees in facing the southpaw, the southpaw also sees them problems from the opposite side too. But they generally win the foot positioning battle. I think it's just more than orthodox fighters not being used to southpaws, although that's got a lot to do with it. It must be weird when you've been told and trained to expect punches from one angle and direction and they keep coming from the opposite. I'm a southpaw myself and when i was in the gym i always found that i had an advantage. Even guys that were MUCH better than me would occassionally get caught with BS punches by me. And it was easier to slip their over the top punches and get under then it was against another southpaws. Most of time i would always end up almost behind them if i somehow made them even partially miss we would be get into a tangle.

The key as you say Mand. is trying to win the foot positioning. Keeping the lead foot outside the southpaws lead right foot and moving away from the power hand. The problem is the orthodox fighter has to keep thinking about doing these things and as you know Mand when i fighter has to THINK and not be instinctive it's not ganna work and he's ganna start hesitating and not getting off. I have seen fighters trying to think against southpaws and it only takes that milli-second while you're thinking and BOOM! You could actually see USS Cunningham doing this on saturday in patches. In his expressions and mannerisms you could see he was thinking 'must do that, must remember to do this'.

I think the worst must be to fight a technically good counter punching southpaw. If the southpaw takes a step back, tucks his chin and draws the orthodox fighters lead and gets him to come then the orthodox fighter is so open to be countered inside his lead. This is probabily the move and punch that i've seen southpaws hurt orthadox fighters most with. Incidently, it was the same one that Cunningham got caught with a few times and the one that dropped him (IIRC) was a perfect illustration of it.

One of the best guys who knew how to fight southpaws was Mike Spinks. His body rhythm allowed him to offset people. He also threw one of the best punches to hurt a southpaw with and that's a sneaky left hybrid uppercut. Southpaws really struggle against this punch. I've seen it over and over. Spinks actually ko'd Marvin Johnson a really good southpaw with this exact punch.

5.12 of the vid below.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKW1cm3QtUU[/ame]




For me the trick is to get southpaws coming forward. In general most of them have an advantage when you show your hand. Keep them coming forward and don't just follow them around for no purpose they love that. Be instinctive is also another way to offset a southpaw.

In todays era Bernard Hopkins probabily fights southpaws the best. He does exactly what they're aiming to do to him and he flips the switch. He draws their lead and brings them into no mans land. He's also very instinctive and throws his punches, especially the straight right (the best punch against a southpaw) with quick release and accuracy. His experience of training with guys like John David Jackson also helps him and of course his all round technical ability and awareness. Something most orthodox fighters don't have.

Last edited by slip&counter; 03-23-2012 at 11:37 AM.
slip&counter is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-06-2012, 05:04 AM   #17
brown bomber
2010 Poster of the Year
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 15,455
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Loving your posts of late S&C

Definately get me thinking
brown bomber is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:26 AM   #18
slip&counter
Gimme some X's and O's
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In that 3 feet of stew again...
Posts: 12,448
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brown bomber View Post
Loving your posts of late S&C

Definately get me thinking
Only of late?

slip&counter is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:31 AM   #19
achillesthegreat
FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 18,266
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

It astounds me how poor fighters are with the fundamentals both technically and strategically.

Like skills said with the southpaw example.

Fighters with their feet and hands out of position, punches thrown incorrectly, basic defence, the inability to parry... Even in the training, you just know that they aren't running or skipping or hitting the bag because they've gassed after 3 rounds.
achillesthegreat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:38 AM   #20
slip&counter
Gimme some X's and O's
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In that 3 feet of stew again...
Posts: 12,448
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by achillesthegreat View Post
It astounds me how poor fighters are with the fundamentals both technically and strategically.

Like skills said with the southpaw example.

Fighters with their feet and hands out of position, punches thrown incorrectly, basic defence, the inability to parry... Even in the training, you just know that they aren't running or skipping or hitting the bag because they've gassed after 3 rounds.

You're so right about parrying, mate.

Here's a post i did in another thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by slip&counter View Post
Parrying is not THAT easy, Billy. It's VERY hard to master at least for us mere mortals. I think the reason so many use the blocking technique (putting the guard up and just taking shots on the arms and gloves and pretty much everyone does in a way) is because it's the most basic even though you have to work at it and the skill level is not high as compared to parrying which is similar to blocking but is the next stage up from that. Parrying requires a lot of skill and refinement. Hours of repetition to be instinctive. You don't see that many fighters who are masters at parrying punches.

I really like parrying because if done in the right way and mastered properly it can be very effective particularly against fighters who overcommitt or fight balls to the wall. It's also a good tactic against fighters with a longer height and reach than you. The ability for transition from offense to defense and vise-versa is very high. You can do it instantly. Whereas with just blocking with your guard that is not the case. With blocking your taking the force and with parrying your deflecting the power. So i would say parrying is a lot more superior to blocking.

Parrying can not only take your opponents power punches, but it can also get the opponent off balance and vulnerable using his own momentum too. It's also MUCH more easier to counter off of a parry then it is off a block. Because your hands are free and you've created space. You're not covering your face which occupies your hands and sometimes obstruct your vision.

Of course the next step above parrying is slipping punches. Which is the hardest defensive style to use as the margin for error is so small. Done right and you avoid the punch entirely.
slip&counter is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:44 AM   #21
achillesthegreat
FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 18,266
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

If you know how to parry, you can easily take away your opponents most common and important punch - the jab. The beauty is you don't take ANY jab like you would if you block every shot. Plus you use less energy than if you were continously slipping where like you say the margin for error is so small.
achillesthegreat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 05:45 AM   #22
im sparticus
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 233
vCash: 621
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFFP View Post
Big fan of the traditional old school defensive style, I'll expand on it later.
Waiting!
im sparticus is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 06:21 AM   #23
WalletInspector
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Team Wales HQ, West Yorkshire
Posts: 10,443
vCash: 75
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

On the topic of southpaw foot placement, 6:25 & 10:25:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pani-idvs_o[/ame]


"We fight with the gloves, but we fight with the foot too"
WalletInspector is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 06:23 AM   #24
slip&counter
Gimme some X's and O's
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In that 3 feet of stew again...
Posts: 12,448
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

That was brillient. Probabily my favourite 'face-off'. Marquez solved the rubix cube.

The thing is though that Manny is not a 'traditional' southpaw. In that he's got a different and unsual and awkward body rhythm. Plus his punching pattern is so different to so many in that way he's unique.

It's helped him that he'd had two looks prior to that fight and so he'd figured him out before and became comfortable with his punching pattern. That was crucial because Pacquiao relies on the element of surpise with his speed and herky jerky style.

What Marquez does is that thing i talked about of getting the southpaw to tread into no mans land. He takes a small step backwards which allows him to get some room and take the sting of Manny's faster punches. He then comes back with combinations whilst Manny's feet are planted after he'd mostly overcomitted. It's beautiful to see. He almost always wins the foot positioning battle. He seems to be the only one who can punch WITH Pacquiao aswell which is key because Pacquiao relies on finishing off extended exchanges and that way giving the impression that he won it, which invariably impresses the judges.

Marquez is generally good at taming speed. What with his timing, accuracy and positioning. I remember what he did to Derrick Gainer. Another speedster.

Last edited by slip&counter; 02-06-2012 at 06:49 AM.
slip&counter is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 06:40 AM   #25
BlackBrenny
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,575
vCash: 75
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by achillesthegreat View Post
If you know how to parry, you can easily take away your opponents most common and important punch - the jab. The beauty is you don't take ANY jab like you would if you block every shot. Plus you use less energy than if you were continously slipping where like you say the margin for error is so small.

The jab was the only punch I would ever attempt to parry, I never felt comfortable doing it, I prefered to block it, try to roll with it, or simply move away from it.

remember how easily mayweather used the jab to draw a parry attempt from hatton only to slash across that lead left hook when hattons hand dropped? he just did that over and over again
BlackBrenny is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 06:53 AM   #26
slip&counter
Gimme some X's and O's
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In that 3 feet of stew again...
Posts: 12,448
vCash: 1000
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackBrenny View Post
The jab was the only punch I would ever attempt to parry, I never felt comfortable doing it, I prefered to block it, try to roll with it, or simply move away from it.

remember how easily mayweather used the jab to draw a parry attempt from hatton only to slash across that lead left hook when hattons hand dropped? he just did that over and over again
That's a good point. Parrying should really only be done with straight or 'lighter' punches as you're essentially trying to anticipate in most cases. Power punches and those which come wider like hooks should not be parried because they can get through on you. Those punches should be slipped. The problem is not every fighter knows how to slip or roll with punches, or even get underneath them. Which leads them to just trying to take it on the guard. Which can work if done properly. Andre Ward for example blocks a lot of over the top stuff by opening his gloves. he doesn't just rely on that though, he can slip under them too.
slip&counter is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 06:59 AM   #27
Spearmint Rhino
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Check Hook Boxing
Posts: 2,207
vCash: 500
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

My favourite Marquez move is the feint with the jab..... oh, and the long uppercut/hook thingy that he does with the left hand, worked a treat against Katsidis many times.
Spearmint Rhino is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 07:14 AM   #28
SkillspayBills
Mandanda Running E-Pen
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 10,848
vCash: 500
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Can't have a technical thread without some video's and this is one of my favs.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4[/ame]

Remember sparring my mate a year back, after he said 'you circle really well'. All down to this video.
SkillspayBills is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 07:20 AM   #29
Hoshi
bigboi
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Lancs UK
Posts: 537
vCash: 2419
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

My favourite face off yet. Much prefer the strategic talk and rivalry banter to trash talking and insults.
Hoshi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 07:22 AM   #30
SkillspayBills
Mandanda Running E-Pen
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 10,848
vCash: 500
Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slip&counter View Post
Amazing how much they struggle ain't it? even someone as technically adept as Floyd has his problems. It's that different look and things coming from the opposite side. When all things are even southpaws have a advantage no doubt. Not only because orthadox fighters are not used to seeing them often (btw i don't know if that's the main reason, there's more southpaws now than ever before and it should be standard to get plenty of sparring with one, back in the day it must've been more difficult because there just wasn't that many around). But i think the main reason orthadox fighters struggle is because the lead hands are so aligned that it makes it very difficult to catch a skillful southpaw with your jab and time him. Most of your punches coming from that angle get easily deflected or slipped.

The thing i don't understand is how orthadox fighters don't use their advantages. They have the same advantages that southpaws have over them. The same problem the orthadox stance sees in facing the southpaw, the southpaw also sees them problems from the opposite side too. But they generally win the foot positioning battle. I think it's just more than orthadox fighters not being used to southpaws, although that's got a lot to do with it. It must be weird when you've been told and trained to expect punches from one angle and direction and they keep coming from the opposite. I'm a southpaw myself and when i was in the gym i always found that i had an advantage. Even guys that were MUCH better than me would occassionally get caught with BS punches by me. And it was easier to slip their over the top punches and get under then it was against another southpaws. Most of time i would always end up almost behind them if i somehow made them even partially miss we would be get into a tangle.

The key as you say Mand. is trying to win the foot positioning. Keeping the lead foot outside the southpaws lead right foot and moving away from the power hand. The problem is the orthadox fighter has to keep thinking about doing these things and as you know Mand when i fighter has to THINK and not be instinctive it's not ganna work and he's ganna start hesitating and not getting off. I have seen fighters trying to think against southpaws and it only takes that milli-second while you're thinking and BOOM! You could actually see USS Cunningham doing this on saturday in patches. In his expressions and mannerisms you could see he was thinking 'must do that, must remember to do this'.

I think the worst must be to fight a technically good counter punching southpaw. If the southpaw takes a step back, tucks his chin and draws the orthadox fighters lead and gets him to come then the orthadox fighter is so open to be countered inside his lead. This is probabily the move and punch that i've seen southpaws hurt orthadox fighters most with. Incidently, it was the same one that Cunningham got caught with a few times and the one that dropped him (IIRC) was a perfect illustration of it.

One of the best guys who knew how to fight southpaws was Mike Spinks. His body rhythm allowed him to offset people. He also threw one of the best punches to hurt a southpaw with and that's a sneaky left hybrid uppercut. Southpaws really struggle against this punch. I've seen it over and over. Spinks actually ko'd Marvin Johnson a really good southpaw with this exact punch.

5.12 of the vid below.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]




For me the trick is to get southpaws coming forward. In general most of them have an advantage when you show your hand. Keep them coming forward and don't just follow them around for no purpose they love that. Be instinctive is also another way to offset a southpaw.

In todays era Bernard Hopkins probabily fights southpaws the best. He does exactly what they're aiming to do to him and he flips the switch. He draws their lead and brings them into no mans land. He's also very instinctive and throws his punches, especially the straight right (the best punch against a southpaw) with quick release and accuracy. His experience of training with guys like John David Jackson also helps him and of course his all round technical ability and awareness. Something most orthadox fighters don't have.
Great Post.

I love compact southpaw's, the uppercut Hernandez contains in his skillset is lovely!.

As you rightly say flip the switch, ask them to come forward draw them out of position and make em' reach and you can punish them.

Watch this video, found it saturday. The Marquez bit is a good watch.

Around 4 mins onwards it heats up.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drkEXlkIiMA[/ame]
SkillspayBills is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > British Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013