The all things technical thread.

[almsn]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

Nonito really is an awesome talent. To the point where we actaully see him practising things in actaul fights. What i like about him is that he has a good mix of athleticism and technical ability. I'm not generally a fan of switch hitting, i think it confuses the fighter who's doing it more than the other way round, i always think when i see a fighter switch hitting he's struggling to get his primary gameplan going and maybe running out of idea, but he's someone who can do it well and get away with it. He has the necessary tools and does it for the right reasons. Like i said to Mand, he's a chameleon in that ring.

The problem for Donaire now is he's trying to become a star, they're selling him on his knockout power. The mistake they're making is putting too much pressure on him to put on spectacular one punch knockouts since the Montiell fight created so much buzz. He's over egging it and doing things not in his favour. Just intend to win Nonito and let things flow naturally.

He's constantly looking for the one punch KO power and when he doesn't get it he leaves people dissppointed. Plus he's leaving himself open too much and getting hit more which makes the people think he's not what he's being made out to be. He's becoming too anxious and not breaking his opponents down and using proper set up and working for his knockout. He's not going to the body enough for example and neglecting certain other things aswell.

His hand problems are also a concern, he's putting too much into every punch. Along with his age aswell because he's already wasted some years. Not managed well for long periods.



That would be a great fight. I think Donaire would be on his game for that fight. Donaire needs to respect his opponent and have the element of 'fear' that he might lose to get the best out of himself. Not in fights where he's just looking for a highlight reel KO and anything else leaves him dissappointed. It would also raise Rigo's game. What a match-up it would be.

Good posts man

[Jdsm]

Originally Posted by norfolkinchance

thank you slip & counter for your earlier comment.

inspired me to write some more.

someone earlier posted a video of james toney slipping ruiz jab and countering it. i willtry and breakdown that a little. imo it isnt possible to do this (at least not for me) if you are reaqcting to the jab or if it is a properly thrown jab. however if you can anticipate the jab or tempt the other guy into throwing it you can land it.

one way is moving backwards staying just out of range encouraging the other guy to lunge or overreach or encouraging the oppo onto you. ideally he expects you to move back and youhold your ground and throw the right hand. or the better way of doing it imo is to throw your jab whilst in range anticipating he will throw his jab straight after and then you throw the right hand.

the way to do it isnt to lean to the right which is what a lotof people do. instead just twist your shoulders clockwise and this should move your head the few inches needed to slip the jab. this also chambers the right hand nicely for extra power. if you can also slide your weight forward a few inches this will add power and range to your shot. another little tweaqk is to take a little step to the right of a few inches before or as you throw the jab as i find this gives you a better angle to throw the right.

From the 'philly shell' defense I avoid doing this for the jab. I try to just bend my legs to slip the shot, or parry with my right glove, becuase if you turn the shoulder, it's a lot harder to roll and counter the right hand follow up.

[norfolkinchance]

Originally Posted by Jdsm

From the 'philly shell' defense I avoid doing this for the jab. I try to just bend my legs to slip the shot, or parry with my right glove, becuase if you turn the shoulder, it's a lot harder to roll and counter the right hand follow up.

good point! will have an experiment next time im in the gym. watching toney he does seem to dip more but i seem to rotsate more. will have a try and see what happens. thanks

something i posted in another thread

two orthodoix fighters. get in close until my left shoulder is touching there chest area. try and throw something with the left to body to get them leaning forward. or just push with shoulder so they push back. then pull back my left shoulder which leaves a nice slot to whip the right uppercut thriugh the guard. works a treat.

the more sideways you are the easier it seems to be to disguise. throw plenty left hooks to distract and not thinking of right hand then boom!!!!

[Jdsm]

Originally Posted by norfolkinchance

good point! will have an experiment next time im in the gym. watching toney he does seem to dip more but i seem to rotsate more. will have a try and see what happens. thanks

something i posted in another thread

two orthodoix fighters. get in close until my left shoulder is touching there chest area. try and throw something with the left to body to get them leaning forward. or just push with shoulder so they push back. then pull back my left shoulder which leaves a nice slot to whip the right uppercut thriugh the guard. works a treat.

the more sideways you are the easier it seems to be to disguise. throw plenty left hooks to distract and not thinking of right hand then boom!!!!

The good thing about the style is that you can also afford lean back slightly to make guys overcommit and then slip, roll and counter punches. That's why I like to pratice it so much in the gym, if you understand WHY you're doing it, it is very effective

The angles that you can present without having to expend a great deal of energy with this style is amazing.

[slip&counter]

Feinting.

Feinting is much an important aspect of creating opportunities for your offense. The aim is to deceive the opponent and make him think you're throwing something somewhere and then you throw it somewhere else. Or the part of him that opens up. You can make a fighter do things he doesn't wanna do just by feinting. It's boxings art of deception. It can be so effective and pretty much anyone will fall for a good feint. It keeps the opponent guessing and stops him from predicting your attack or figuring out your punching pattern. You can control what points your opponents adjusts his guard or what movements he makes by feinting certain punches. The most effective and my favourite feint is throwing a couple of jabs to the body, then feinting the next time which than brings your opponents hands down as he attempts to block the body shot leaving his himself open up top. you can manoeuvre his guard positioning by feinting. The more openings you can make for you power punches the better and feinting is a major tool to do that. It's a dying art though, feinting. You don't see too many fighters doing it properly as a result they're more predictable. Even if they do it it's too exaggerated and not effective feinting.

I recently watched Eddie Perkins fighting Ryu Sorimachi (i can't find the vid now i don't know if someone can post it here) and he gave a masterpiece on feinting.

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by Jdsm

The good thing about the style is that you can also afford lean back slightly to make guys overcommit and then slip, roll and counter punches. That's why I like to pratice it so much in the gym, if you understand WHY you're doing it, it is very effective

The angles that you can present without having to expend a great deal of energy with this style is amazing.

It'd be great if you could do a full breakdown of the phily shell, the pros and cons and how to fight out of it, mate.

[Jdsm]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

It'd be great if you could do a full breakdown of the phily shell, the pros and cons and how to fight out of it, mate.

I'll try my best, although I know I'll miss something ridiculously obvious out and it may not be too well-written

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by Jdsm

I'll try my best, although I know I'll miss something ridiculously obvious out and it may not be too well-written

I'm sure it'll be good.

[pathmanc1986]

Feinting has to be educated or with purpose though. theres a lot of guys who seem to twitch and act like they are being electricuted, out of both their range and the opponents and it adds nothing to their game. Groves is guilty of this, particularly in the anderson fight. it wastes energy without providing any benefit.

the best feints are fake feints - or feints of a punch you have been delivering, fake that punch that you have been landing and deliver something in response to it.

take this andy lee KO ( one we have all seen replayed 100s of times i know) - show somone a punch - feint it - set something up off it


[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=E2bPJQcDyu0[/ame]

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by SkillspayBills

I do love a check hook, it's amazing how effective it is, I prefer it when southpaw's do it. They can look so compact as they land and then slide away.

Southpaws just look so much more aesthetically pleasing with almost every shot. The angle for them to slide out just looks better doesn't it and more smooth. It seems like the orthodox fighter has to use his feet more to get out for that shot.

I loved trying to immitate southpaws when i was a kid.

[SkillspayBills]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

Southpaws just look so much more aesthetically pleasing with almost every shot. The angle for them to slide out just looks better doesn't it and more smooth. It seems like the orthodox fighter has to use his feet to get out for that shot.

I loved trying to immitate southpaws when i was a kid.

Yep that's it in a nutshell mate, Part of my boxing 'apprenticeship' as a child i told my father when moving to another gym 'i'm going southpaw' i felt so much better fighting as a lefty.

My only problem and i dunno how this is for most lefty's at AM level but sadly many trainers don't like it, don't know how to work pads for a southpaw and often try change fighters around to orthodox.

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by SkillspayBills

Yep that's it in a nutshell mate, Part of my boxing 'apprenticeship' as a child i told my father when moving to another gym 'i'm going southpaw' i felt so much better fighting as a lefty.

My only problem and i dunno how this is for most lefty's at AM level but sadly many trainers don't like it, don't know how to work pads for a southpaw and often try change fighters around to orthodox.

It's the same everywhere. They think there's something wrong with being a southpaw. For whatever reason. I wasn't having non of it and turned myself into one, i was so MUCH more comfortable especially in the offensive department. What i found, ironically enough. And i don't know if anyone else has had this experience is that i was generally better at trying to avoid punches in the orthodox stance but the southpaw stance was easier in releasing punches and getting off more. I don't know why that was. Maybe trying to immitate and 'sit on the toilet' like Pernell Whitaker, not doing it properly and walking into punches had something to do with it.

[Jdsm]

The 'philly shell' is quite a complex style with so many subtleties and variations that it's very hard to break down. It is often refered to as the 'shoulder roll defense' because the shoulder roll is one of the defensive skills that is incorporated by most boxers that use this style.

Since most of the interest in this style is from a defensive stand point, I will start with the defensive benefits of using the philly shell. The first defensive skill I'll talk about is the shoulder roll. The shoulder roll is very effective for defending against the orthodox right hand, specifically the straight right. Not only does it ensure that the chin is well protected from the shot, but if executed effectively, it sets up clean counterpunching opportunities.

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=sAC6o9420fc[/ame]

3:10 (3:17 for slow motion) shows perfect execution of the shoulder roll by Mayweather. Not only does he protect his chin and deflect the shot away with the shoulder, he comes back with a nice short shot of his own, which Mosley is wide open for. With the shoulder roll, the orthodox fighter will turn his shoulders clockwise as the punch is anticipated and as this is done, it also takes the right hand out of the opponent's sight, which makes it a lot harder for them to defend against a counter that they've already been opened up for.

Further examples of the shoulder roll - counter right hand being executed:

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=LDrFQtbM2rc[/ame]

Another defensive benefit of the philly shell is that when a fighter is backed up against the ropes, because of the hand position, they don't restrict their own vision and this allows them to parry, slip, roll and counter against punches.

A few examples of this:

8:25
[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl50iVr25R8[/ame]

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=DQjBDsHOpv4[/ame]

Due to the hands are held in the philly shell, so many defensive moves can be executed with minimal effort and energy expendature.

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=YqOJp9Wmayo[/ame]

At around 1:45 Floyd Mayweather demonstrates how with very, very small movements shots can be blocked and present huge counter opportunities.

Since there is so much involved in this style, I'll make another post with the offensive benefits and if anybody wants me to try and explain further any defensive specifics, just ask. I'm not great at writing out long break downs

[brown bomber]

Awesome post JDSM but your missing one really important little thing- and I think its actually the single most important part of that 'style' of boxing. I hate calling it the 'philly shell' because as far as I'm aware its computer game terminology- please someone prove me wrong so I don't feel a twat typing it.

Look where the fighters body weight is generally proportioned. He sits over the back leg (unless he chooses otherwise). By doing this he allows himself a number of functional advantages....

1. His opponent has to reach to hit him- if you reach your off balance. So whilst he is on balance and his opponent is off balance he has the advantage.

2. Movement originates in the legs- specifically the back leg. The lead leg supports the movement- but the inital movement tends to be initiated by movement from the back leg. Think George Groves.....

3. More leverage for the right hand. You load the back leg to transfer the weight for the right hand. Thus if your weight is sat there all the time you have it available to you at all times.

4. Multi directional movement is easier. If your weight sits on the back foot then you can quickly change the direction your moving in faster as there is no weight to shift.

5. Keeping the weight on the back foot allows you a great base from where to throw all your shots. You should not be shifting your weight around for each individual punch, you should have a base from where you can execute any move, at any time. For example if your weight is pitched forward you can no longer deliver a good cross, you can no longer roll and slip as effectively. etc etc.....

Its no coincidence that all the top fighters you name here as stylist proportion themselves in this manner.... compare this

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=AnUU3SbywZU[/ame]

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=60GuoYpmbJo[/ame]

[ame]***********.youtube.com/watch?v=r8INHy35zWg&feature=related[/ame]

[DrMo]

^ Good post jdsm

Could you talk a little about the footwork?

Do most guys who use the shell adopt a slightly wider stance than normal?