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Old 02-07-2008, 04:21 PM   #16
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Default Re: Lewis's retirement speech - 4 years on

Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
He could have said so AFTER the fight. He could have threatened to walk from Lewis before the fight, before the movie. Training camp is training camp, and the trainer should have a load of authority.

You're giving Steward the benefit of the doubt, I'm just assessing him on all the apparent indications.
If this was a Holyfield or Tyson fight I would like to believe Steward would have walked, but I dont know.

The acclimitisation was an ISSUE BEFORE THE FIGHT.
I'm not saying it was the primary factor but it was quite a talking point. The fact that Rahman had got there weeks in advance, and the fact that the writers and boxers out there knew the difference, made Lewis's cavalier attitude conspicuous.
It was another INDICATION of the overall over-confidence. Steward chose to give interviews and give over-confident answers. You can argue that this was his cover-up but that is just giving him the benefit of the doubt.
Have any indications come to light that Steward wasn't really just as ****y and over-confident as Lewis ?
Well, considering Steward says about nearly every fight "this goes exactly how i thought it would" and similar remarks, i think it's clear that this is always what he brings to the outside. Whatever he really thinks, who knows? I think there can be no doubt that Steward underestimated Rahman too, though.

Originally Posted by Sonny's Jab
Again, you're giving Steward the benefit of the doubt. It's as if Lewis decided not to train and make movies, against Steward's wishes, so Steward had to find something else to do ? More likely is that BOTH guys considered Rahman a soft-touch who was hardly worth bothering with. And Steward wanted the Hamed money.
Maybe, maybe not. We will never know. However, as said before, i think it's the fighter's responsibility to train.

Originally Posted by Sonny's Jab
On the contrary, Rahman exploited a far worse flaw than McCall exploited. McCall had to time his right at the same time as Lewis started to throw his. Lewis tipped his right a bit, and dropped his left. McCall exploited this well.
Lewis against Rahman had no defense, footwork all skewed, just stood there looking completely amateurish, actually walked INTO the ropes under his own volition, and got KO'd. The flaws in Lewis at the point he got KO'd are so numerous it's worth wondering what he was doing correct.
Well he still won all of the first four rounds while having "no defense, footwork all skewed, just stood there amateurish". Perhaps you're mistaking the last 10 seconds of the fight with how the entire fight went ?

Originally Posted by Sonny's Jab
Teddy Atlas would have fights with Michael Moorer when Moorer was trying to slack. He'd be on his door telling him to get his shoes on and run. Many old school trainers were similar. I tend to think Lewis was a more reasonable and less moody guy than Moorer, and would have listened to harsh reality. I suspect that Steward was genuinely as slack and over-confident about this fight as Lewis was.
True. Atlas is more of a "motivational" coach.

Originally Posted by Sonny's Jab
There are credible reports that Blackburn did complain about Louis prior to the fight. But I think Schmeling fought one hell of a fight, to be honest. Louis's golfing may have played a part but I think Schmeling just beat him with clever boxing and counter-punching.
And how do you know Steward didn't complain to Lewis ?

Originally Posted by Sonny's Jab
Yes, Goldman DID assist Marciano's conditioning. In some fights Marciano thought maybe Goldman had pushed him too hard and over-trained him, so Marciano cut down his training in his last fights, against Goldman's fierce protests. However, I thought Marciano looked better when he'd "over-trained" than in his fight with ****ell, where he cut back and looked a bit tired.
And we're just talking about the relative amount of training here, huge amounts, training camps, not whether a fighter is making movies or dismissing such considerations as high altitude acclimitisation.

Tyson is a different character to Lewis.
Firstly, he seems unpredicatable and unhinged, moody and manic depressive. Tyson changed trainers all the time. Yes, they failed. But the fact suggests he was a difficult person to succeed with.
Secondly, his trainers after Rooney were just trying to encourage him to go back to the D'amato style, they hadn't actually been involved in it.
Obviously, if Lewis credited Steward with making him a better fighter, and respected him for it, he would be open to listening to some home truths.
But I doubt any fierce confrontations occured over Lewis's relative slackness. I suspect that Steward was equally as ****y about Rahman as Lewis was.

You're missing the point. The point is that ultimately, it was Marciano who was obsessed with training a lot and he should get credit for that, not Goldman. If a fighter doesn't want to train, then there's not much as a trainer you can do about that.

Originally Posted by Sonny's Jab
A trainer has some responsibility, surely. If you asked a good trainer what those responsibilities are, I think he would say "It is my job to get my fighter fully prepared, mentally and physically, to compete at his best in the fight".
That is his job, his profession, that is what he is paid to do. So why shouldn't he be held to account when that job CLEARLY hasn't been done properly ?
Very simple: because in the end, it's the fighter who decides whether or not he trains. The trainer is there to help and assist during training to make training more effective, but not make him train.
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:00 AM   #17
Sonny's jab
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Default Re: Lewis's retirement speech - 4 years on

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Well he still won all of the first four rounds while having "no defense, footwork all skewed, just stood there amateurish". Perhaps you're mistaking the last 10 seconds of the fight with how the entire fight went ?
Well, McCall didn't exactly walk all over Lewis in the minutes before the end of the fight either, it was a similar situation. Lewis looked in control, (and certainly not BEING controlled) until the last punch.

And Lewis looked much sloppier than usual, to me, in "the entire fight" against Rahman.
But obviously the last 10 seconds were the defining moments of that fight.

As for all the stuff about Steward, I agree with you and disagree. Of course, the fighter is the most responsible, but the trainer has responsibility too.
Manny Steward is definitely one of those guys who's been put on a pedestal and is immune from criticism in certain quarters. I think Frank Maloney had a valid point in his criticizing of Steward's complicity in the Rahman defeat. He does the same thing with Pepe Corea and everyone cheers approvingly.
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