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Old 02-08-2008, 04:35 AM   #16
Dempsey1238
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

With what?? Holding and Leading??? Wlad is just asking to be blasted to the body.
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:50 AM   #17
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Louis - Win (TKO)
Ali - Loss (dec)
Holmes - Loss (dec)
Foreman - Loss (TKO)
Tyson - Win (dec)
Holyfield - Win (dec)
Walcott - Win (KO)
Dempsey - Win (KO)
Marciano - Win (TKO)
Liston - Loss (KO)
Frazier - Win (KO)
Charles - Win (KO)
Lewis - Loss (dec)
Johnson - Win (KO)
Jeffries - Win (dec)
Tunney - Win (TKO)
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:01 AM   #18
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsterdam
How does he do against the crop of(not in order) -

Louis
Ali
Holmes
Foreman
Tyson
Holyfield
Walcott
Dempsey
Marciano
Liston
Frazier
Charles
Lewis
Johnson
Tunney

Discuss.
When fighters are rated or ranked, I think most of us tend to view them in their prime years. For modern big heavyweights, those years are from 29-34. I beleive Wlad has just entered his prime. Wlad it as a time when his skills, athletic ability, technique, experience vs multiple styles and confidence are all at high levels. I think it best to wait and see how he does in the next 2-3 years. He is going to get one unification match. Perhaps two, and has another match vs the undefeated Olympic gold medal champion ( Povetkin ) in the works. In addition, we have to see how much his opponents accomplish. Can Peter win a title? Can Ibragimov bounce back if he losses? And Where will Povetkin end up.

One thing Wlad is not going to do is make his mark off washed up X champions. Some old time greats fought well past their prime - washed up guys. In other cases, some great champions beat on greenhorn that would later on become great. Somehow adds to their legacy.

Johnson, Louis, Dempsey, and Marciano get credit for anywhere from some to a lot of credit for beating up at least one their prime X champions. Lewis to a degree gets the same.

Johnson also seems to get a lot of credit for beating up on greenhorns.

Wlad is not going to have Holyfield or Tyson's name ( I hope ) as KO victims on his resume. He is beating prime rated opponents, who in many cases were un-defeated. If you ask me, people like Peter or Ibragimov had a heck of a lot more than Tyson did when Lewis beat him. However, who will get more credit for the win? Lewis will, but if we are objective maybe he shouldn’t. See my point?

As it stands right now, I would pick Wlad over Charles, Johnson, Walcott, and Tunney. I perfer to wait and see on the other names. I think Wlad is working his way into the top 20.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:07 AM   #19
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Louis
This is a toss-up. I think given the size differential, Louis is more susceptible to Wlad's offense than Wlad is to Louis'. The lean-back style defense of Wlad accentuates his size to great effect, and Joe might find himself hard-pressed to hit Klitschko back. However, it is my opinion that Louis has very underrated defensive qualities; and even though he is sure to take punishment early, he will eventually get inside. Only once there can Louis showcase his superior offense. Should Klitschko get caught up in the hurricane, there may be no point of return for him.

Both can render the other man unconscious, but Louis has recuperative ability that is well-documented.


Holmes
A fight overwhelmingly in Holmes' favor, I see no way Larry can lose. Klitscko can't outbox him; I doubt he'd knock him down at all, the factors just all favor Larry Holmes.

Klitschko is a fighter who has a very robotic approach to offense. Against Larry, arguably the best pure mover in this list, he stands very little chance; His output would be substantially stunted, and so, subsequently, his connect percentage would suffer. He will never get set.


Holyfield
While it is well within Holyfield's range to defeat Wlad, more often than not, I see the bigger man taking the decision. This represents the same type of match as the Riddick Bowe fiasco for Holyfield (though not the sole basis used in predicting the outcome).

In a series of five fights, I can give Evander a maximum of two fights most probably by decision; Wlad knocks him out at least once, winning the rest by decision. Holyfield sometimes seemed disenchanted retreading old ground. He was terribly inconsistent.
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:00 AM   #20
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

I think Vlad is a headache for Ali,Holmes,Tunney,Liston,Johnson I think he would have a chance vs Foreman,Frazier,Jeffries,Holyfield,Tyson but be in danger and I think he would have less of a chance vs Louis,Marciano,Dempsey,Lewis but still a top form Vlad can catch a win, its a matter of styles

Last edited by bigjake; 02-03-2007 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:18 AM   #21
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
I think Vlad is a headache for Ali,Holmes,Tunney,Liston,Johnson I think he would have a chance vs Foreman,Frazier,Jeffries,Holyfield,Tyson but be in danger and I think he would have less of a chance vs Louis,Marciano,Dempsey,Lewis but still a top form Vlad can catch a win, its a matter of styles
I must say this board has evolved a bit regarding Wlad.
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:59 AM   #22
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
I think Vlad is a headache for Ali,Holmes,Tunney,Liston,Johnson I think he would have a chance vs Foreman,Frazier,Jeffries,Holyfield,Tyson but be in danger and I think he would have less of a chance vs Louis,Marciano,Dempsey,Lewis but still a top form Vlad can catch a win, its a matter of styles
I disagree with these. Out of all the fighters being considered here, I actually pick Holmes with the most confidence to beat Wlad. Ali, likewise, would outclass him. Liston would knock him out (although Wlad has a slight chance to do the same to Liston, Sonny pulled the trigger with much less trepidation).

Wlad has the technique to contain Foreman, but I don't know if he can sustain focus for all 12 or 15 rounds. It is imperative that he does. Foreman might tire late, but not to the same degree as the Rumble where Ali practically goaded him into punching himself out. Remember, Foreman let his opponent dictate the pace most of the time. Against Wlad, this would be mutually beneficial because Wlad slowed the action down and both thrived in those conditions. George might come out blazing at first, but once Wlad starts jab-clinching the pace will slow.
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Cash
Louis
This is a toss-up.
Shame on you.
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:43 PM   #24
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I perfer to wait and see on the other names. I think Wlad is working his way into the top 20.
Wlad is verry much a watch this space fighter.

Another upset loss could push him back down the greasy pole, but if he continues wining as he has in his last few fights against ranked contenders then the question of a top 20 slot cannot be put off for long.

With fights against Ibragimov and perhaps other beltholders looming we live in interesting times.

Last edited by janitor; 02-08-2008 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 02-08-2008, 02:52 PM   #25
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Louis TKO's him early
Ali either UD's him BIG or TKO's him late (after Wlad gasses)
Holmes easily outpoints him
Foreman KO's him inside of 3
Tyson KO's him inside of 3
Holyfield semi-close UD or late TKO's him


Walcott is a tough one, I'm thinking Klitschko either wins a close UD or get's KO/TKO'd late. Walcott would be getting outjabbed and outpointed, but he's crafty enough to reach that chin sooner or later.

Dempsey KO's him inside of 5
Marciano KO's him, probably around 6-9

Liston embaresses him in the jabbing contest and then TKO's him around round 7

Frazier rapes him to the body and then drops him for the count in round 5

A Charles fight would be similar to a Walcott fight, but harder for Klitschko. It's either a close UD either way or a late Charles TKO.

Lewis absolutely embaresses him. He either carries him the distance to lose the widest of UD's or shows some mercy and takes him out early.

Under today's rules Wladimir would most likely wide UD Johnson.

Wladimir probably outpoints Tunney - I'm going close UD either way. Neither guy is getting stopped in this scenario, unless Wlad gasses out BAD in the late rounds (in which case Tunney stops him).

To sum it up - Wladimir has the absolute glassiest chin possible for a guy his size, and although his robotic jab+grab style may help him beat guys of Sam Peter caliber, it won't help him against guys of ATG caliber. He's so predictable, has ZERO infighting skill, and has a very overrated jab.
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:20 PM   #26
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Shame on you.
A countless number of heavyweights came before and after Joe Louis; being number two in a given weight class does not guarantee a victory over all the rest. In Klitschko, the Bomber faces a tall, rangy fighter who is absolutely deadly outside. If you read the rest of my post I specifically said that Louis will probably close the distance eventually but not without taking leather.

If I had to make a call, of course I'd pick Louis; he's by far the more known quantity and he's been tested on numerous occasions. I'm still on the fence though as Wlad poses a very live, stylistic threat. While Louis is kept at the periphery, he's in danger of being knocked down or out by Wladimir Klitschko.
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Louis unquestionably has to move forward in this fight else he'd get splattered.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:04 PM   #28
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Cash
A countless number of heavyweights came before and after Joe Louis; being number two in a given weight class does not guarantee a victory over all the rest. In Klitschko, the Bomber faces a tall, rangy fighter who is absolutely deadly outside. If you read the rest of my post I specifically said that Louis will probably close the distance eventually but not without taking leather.

If I had to make a call, of course I'd pick Louis; he's by far the more known quantity and he's been tested on numerous occasions. I'm still on the fence though as Wlad poses a very live, stylistic threat. While Louis is kept at the periphery, he's in danger of being knocked down or out by Wladimir Klitschko.
You miss the point.

You dared to question Joe Louis!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though I apreciate some of your points.

I dont think reach ever achieved much against Louis. When he was coming forward he curled up like an armadillo and nobody could do much untill he exploded in their face.

Earlier in his career before he perfected this method he used footwork to the same effect.
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Old 02-08-2008, 04:07 PM   #29
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Cash
Louis unquestionably has to move forward in this fight else he'd get splattered.

If Wlad isn't watertight defensively (especially in the clinches) or too ponderous he'll be the one to get splattered. IMO Wlad has the physical tools to cause Louis problems (maybe, just maybe beat him) but does he the mental fortitude, concentration and ability to keep Louis off him all night long. Personally I doubt it (all Louis ever needed was one or two openings).
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:04 PM   #30
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Default Re: Wlad Klitschko vs. the general ATG HW top 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
I think Vlad is a headache for Ali,Holmes,Tunney,Liston,Johnson I think he would have a chance vs Foreman,Frazier,Jeffries,Holyfield,Tyson but be in danger and I think he would have less of a chance vs Louis,Marciano,Dempsey,Lewis but still a top form Vlad can catch a win, its a matter of styles
I agree. The fighters that lack power, as you mentioned, would be looking at a lot of trouble, while the aggressive, powerful fighters like Tyson, Dempsey, Marciano, Lewis (he always started fast against big opponents) etc would have a much better chance.
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