Top 10 ATG HW list: based on the number of wins over ranked opponents

[ironchamp]

We frequently do Top 10 HW lists all the time but this time I was thinking maybe we should do one based on number of wins over ranked opponents thereby evaluating the body of work of each respective fighter.

Anyway anyone care to post thier list?

[Langford]

Well, going by more or less by Ring (which has a cutoff point of 1924). You have:
Dempsey at three (Gibbons, Firpo, Sharkey) I think you could add Brennan, Smith, Fulton, Miske, Morris) so I would say for him its prob. 8.
Tunney: 4 (Weinert (guess), Risko, Dempsey and Heeney)
Sharkey: 8 (Godfrey, Maloney, Wills, Risko, Renault, Scott, Carnera, Schmeling)
Schmeling: 7 (Risko, Uzcudun, Sharkey, Stribling, Hamas, Louis, Neusel)
Louis: 21 (Ramage, Perroni, Brown, Carnera, Levinsky, Baer, Pastor, Farr, Mann, Schmeling, Galento, Godoy, Simon, B. Baer, Conn, Nova, Maureillo, Walcott, Agramonte, Savold, Brion)
Charles:11 (Ray, Baksi, Maxim, Walcott, Bivins, Valentino, Louis, Oma, Layne, Brion, Satterfield)
Walcott 7 (Baksi, Maxim, Bivins, Oma, Ray, Argamonte, Charles)
Rocky: 8 (LaStarza, Layne, Louis, Savold, Walcott, Charles, Cockell, Moore)
Patterson: 8 (Jackson, Moore, Harris, London, Ingo, Machen, Chuvalo, Bonavena)
Liston: 8 (Bethea, DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Harris, Folley, Machen, Patterson)
Ali: 27 (Mitiff, Daniels, Lavoronte, Moore, Jones, Cooper, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, London, Mildenberger, Terrell, Folley, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Mac Foster, Bugner, Norton, Frazier, Foreman, Wepner, Lyle, Young, Evangelista, Shavers, Spinks)
Frazier 8 (Bonavena, Machen, Jones, Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis, Ali, Bugner)
Foreman: 5 (Frazier, Roman, Norton, Lyle, Moorer)
Holmes: 18 (Shavers, Norton, Evangelista, Ocassio, Weaver, Zanon, Jones, LeDoux, Berbick, Spinks, Snipes, Cooney, Cobb, Witherspoon, Smith, Bey, Williams, Mercer)
Tyson: 11 (Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno, Williams, Ruddock, Seldon)
Holy: 11 (Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, Moorer, Ruiz, Rahman)
Bowe 4 (Holyfield, Hide, Gonzales, Golota)
Lennox: 15 (Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Jackson, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwande, Golota, Briggs, Holyfield, Grant, Tua, Tyson, Rahman, V. Klitschko)
Wlad 5 (Byrd, Jefferson, McCline, Peter, Brock)

that was tedious! I tried to get fighters in the top ten that year, or in the past two years or future two. (keeping in mind that the reason the contenders might be ranked out of the top ten was that they lost to the future champ). Some surprises there. I did not count rematches. I guess if you go by quality (near) top ten you have:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Lewis (top four)
5-7 Charles/Tyson/Holy tie with 11.
8-13 Dempsey, Sharkey, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Frazier. tie with 8
14-15 Schmeling/Walcott tie with 7

I am sure I am missing some more "ranked" wins but that's fairly close.

[Marciano Frazier]

Originally Posted by Langford

Well, going by more or less by Ring (which has a cutoff point of 1924). You have:
Dempsey at three (Gibbons, Firpo, Sharkey) I think you could add Brennan, Smith, Fulton, Miske, Morris) so I would say for him its prob. 8.
Tunney: 4 (Weinert (guess), Risko, Dempsey and Heeney)
Sharkey: 8 (Godfrey, Maloney, Wills, Risko, Renault, Scott, Carnera, Schmeling)
Schmeling: 7 (Risko, Uzcudun, Sharkey, Stribling, Hamas, Louis, Neusel)
Louis: 21 (Ramage, Perroni, Brown, Carnera, Levinsky, Baer, Pastor, Farr, Mann, Schmeling, Galento, Godoy, Simon, B. Baer, Conn, Nova, Maureillo, Walcott, Agramonte, Savold, Brion)
Charles:11 (Ray, Baksi, Maxim, Walcott, Bivins, Valentino, Louis, Oma, Layne, Brion, Satterfield)
Walcott 7 (Baksi, Maxim, Bivins, Oma, Ray, Argamonte, Charles)
Rocky: 8 (LaStarza, Layne, Louis, Savold, Walcott, Charles, Cockell, Moore)
Patterson: 8 (Jackson, Moore, Harris, London, Ingo, Machen, Chuvalo, Bonavena)
Liston: 8 (Bethea, DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Harris, Folley, Machen, Patterson)
Ali: 27 (Mitiff, Daniels, Lavoronte, Moore, Jones, Cooper, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, London, Mildenberger, Terrell, Folley, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Mac Foster, Bugner, Norton, Frazier, Foreman, Wepner, Lyle, Young, Evangelista, Shavers, Spinks)
Frazier 8 (Bonavena, Machen, Jones, Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis, Ali, Bugner)
Foreman: 5 (Frazier, Roman, Norton, Lyle, Moorer)
Holmes: 18 (Shavers, Norton, Evangelista, Ocassio, Weaver, Zanon, Jones, LeDoux, Berbick, Spinks, Snipes, Cooney, Cobb, Witherspoon, Smith, Bey, Williams, Mercer)
Tyson: 11 (Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno, Williams, Ruddock, Seldon)
Holy: 11 (Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, Moorer, Ruiz, Rahman)
Bowe 4 (Holyfield, Hide, Gonzales, Golota)
Lennox: 15 (Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Jackson, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwande, Golota, Briggs, Holyfield, Grant, Tua, Tyson, Rahman, V. Klitschko)
Wlad 5 (Byrd, Jefferson, McCline, Peter, Brock)

that was tedious! I tried to get fighters in the top ten that year, or in the past two years or future two. (keeping in mind that the reason the contenders might be ranked out of the top ten was that they lost to the future champ). Some surprises there. I did not count rematches. I guess if you go by quality (near) top ten you have:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Lewis (top four)
5-7 Charles/Tyson/Holy tie with 11.
8-13 Dempsey, Sharkey, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Frazier. tie with 8
14-15 Schmeling/Walcott tie with 7

I am sure I am missing some more "ranked" wins but that's fairly close.

I'm seeing a lot of errors here...
You don't think Willard counts as a ranked opponent for Dempsey?Gomez and Johnson were definitely both ranked when Walcott beat them. Where's Matthews on Marciano's ledger? I'm pretty certain Jose Roman wasn't ranked when Foreman beat him, but Peralta and possibly Chuvalo were.

In addition, the topic was "number of wins over ranked opponents," not, "number of ranked opponents beaten," and hence you're wrong to only count each fighter once; for example, since Marciano beat Walcott, Charles and LaStarza each twice, his total would actually be 12, and since Louis beat Pastor, Conn, Godoy, etc. each twice, he also has quite a few more wins than you credit him with here.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Langford

Well, going by more or less by Ring (which has a cutoff point of 1924). You have:
Dempsey at three (Gibbons, Firpo, Sharkey) I think you could add Brennan, Smith, Fulton, Miske, Morris) so I would say for him its prob. 8.
Tunney: 4 (Weinert (guess), Risko, Dempsey and Heeney)
Sharkey: 8 (Godfrey, Maloney, Wills, Risko, Renault, Scott, Carnera, Schmeling)
Schmeling: 7 (Risko, Uzcudun, Sharkey, Stribling, Hamas, Louis, Neusel)
Louis: 21 (Ramage, Perroni, Brown, Carnera, Levinsky, Baer, Pastor, Farr, Mann, Schmeling, Galento, Godoy, Simon, B. Baer, Conn, Nova, Maureillo, Walcott, Agramonte, Savold, Brion)
Charles:11 (Ray, Baksi, Maxim, Walcott, Bivins, Valentino, Louis, Oma, Layne, Brion, Satterfield)
Walcott 7 (Baksi, Maxim, Bivins, Oma, Ray, Argamonte, Charles)
Rocky: 8 (LaStarza, Layne, Louis, Savold, Walcott, Charles, Cockell, Moore)
Patterson: 8 (Jackson, Moore, Harris, London, Ingo, Machen, Chuvalo, Bonavena)
Liston: 8 (Bethea, DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Harris, Folley, Machen, Patterson)
Ali: 27 (Mitiff, Daniels, Lavoronte, Moore, Jones, Cooper, Liston, Patterson, Chuvalo, London, Mildenberger, Terrell, Folley, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Mac Foster, Bugner, Norton, Frazier, Foreman, Wepner, Lyle, Young, Evangelista, Shavers, Spinks)
Frazier 8 (Bonavena, Machen, Jones, Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis, Ali, Bugner)
Foreman: 5 (Frazier, Roman, Norton, Lyle, Moorer)
Holmes: 18 (Shavers, Norton, Evangelista, Ocassio, Weaver, Zanon, Jones, LeDoux, Berbick, Spinks, Snipes, Cooney, Cobb, Witherspoon, Smith, Bey, Williams, Mercer)
Tyson: 11 (Berbick, Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs, Tubbs, Spinks, Bruno, Williams, Ruddock, Seldon)
Holy: 11 (Thomas, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Mercer, Tyson, Moorer, Ruiz, Rahman)
Bowe 4 (Holyfield, Hide, Gonzales, Golota)
Lennox: 15 (Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Jackson, Morrison, Mercer, Akinwande, Golota, Briggs, Holyfield, Grant, Tua, Tyson, Rahman, V. Klitschko)
Wlad 5 (Byrd, Jefferson, McCline, Peter, Brock)

that was tedious! I tried to get fighters in the top ten that year, or in the past two years or future two. (keeping in mind that the reason the contenders might be ranked out of the top ten was that they lost to the future champ). Some surprises there. I did not count rematches. I guess if you go by quality (near) top ten you have:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Lewis (top four)
5-7 Charles/Tyson/Holy tie with 11.
8-13 Dempsey, Sharkey, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Frazier. tie with 8
14-15 Schmeling/Walcott tie with 7

I am sure I am missing some more "ranked" wins but that's fairly close.

I think you have missed quite a few out. Louis for example had 32 wins over ranked oponents if I recall OLD FOGEYs analysis.

Langford made one hell of an effort there fellas.
It's not something I have the patience to do in any hurry.

[mattdonnellon]

Dont know if this would help but this is a Ring-style year-end ratings that i previously put together, it's not perfect (modest) but it's probably as good as some of the Ring effords(immodest!)
1892

Champion Corbett
2. Jackson
3. Goddard
4. Slavin
5. Choynski
6. Fitzsimmons
7. Hall
8. Godfrey
9. McAuliffe
10. Kilrain


1893

Champion Corbett
2. Jackson
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Denver Smith
5. Hall
6. Goddard
7. Slavin
8. Choynski
9. McAuliffe
10. Godfrey

1894

Champion Corbett
2. Jackson
3. Fitzsimmons
4. Smith
5. Choynski
6. Maher
7. Goddard
8. Hall
9. Slavin
10. Godfrey

1895

Champion Maher
2. Fitzsimmons
3. Jackson
4. Slavin
5. Smith
6. Choynski
7. Felix
8. Hall
9. Creedon
10. O’Donnell

1896

Champion Corbett
2. Fitzsimmons
3. Maher
4. Choynski
5. Sharkey
6. Armstrong
7. Creedon
8. Goddard
9. Ruhlin
10. O’Donnell

1897

Champion Fitzsimmons
2. Maher
3. Sharkey
4. Choynski
5. Childs
6. Corbett
7. Ruhlin
8. Jeffries
9. O’Donnell
10. Armstrong

1898

Champion Fitzsimmons
2. Jeffries
3. Sharkey
4. Maher
5. Corbett
6. McCoy
7. Ruhlin
8. Childs
9. Armstrong
10. Choynski

1899

Champion Jeffries
2. Sharkey
3. Fitxsimmons
4. Maher
5. McCoy
6. Corbett
7. Kennedy
8. Ruhlin
9. Childs
10. Martin


1900

Champion Jeffries
2 Fitzsimmons
3 Corbett
4 McCoy
5 Ruhlin
6 Sharkey
7 Childs
8 Maher
9 Kennedy
10 Martin

1901

Champion Jeffries
2 Ruhlin
3 McCoy
4 Childs
5 Sharkey
6 Root
7 Martin
8 Maher
9 Griffin
10 Gardner

1902

Champion Jeffries
2 Fitzsimmons
3 Ruhlin
4 Martin
5 Johnson
6 Gardner
7 O’Brien
8 Root
9 Hart
10 Carter

1903

Champion Jeffries
2 Fitzsimmons
3 Johnson
4 Ruhlin
5 Gardner
6 Root
7 Hart
8 O’Brien
9 Armstrong
10 McVey

1904

Champion Jeffries
2 Johnson
3 Hart
4 Root
5 O’Brien
6 Gardner
7 Ruhlin
8 Ferguson
9 Martin
10 McVey

1905

Champion Hart
2 Johnson
3 O’Brien
4 Jeanette
5 Root
6 Fitzsimmons
7 Ruhlin
8 Kaufman
9 J Twin Sullivan
10 Schreck

1906

Champion Burns
2 Johnson
3 O’Brien
4 Langford
5 Jeanette
6 McVey
7 Kaufman
8 Schreck
9 Hart
10 Ruhlin

1907

Champion Burns
2 Johnson
3 Kaufman
4 Langford
5 Jeanette
6 McVey
7 O’Brien
8 Schreck
9 Jim Flynn
10 Sullivan

1908

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Kaufman
4 Burns
5 Jeanette
6 McVey
7 O’Brien
8 Hart
9 Ross
10 Schreck

1909

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Jeanette
4 McVey
5 Kaufman
6 Ketchell
7 O’Brien
8 Ferguson
9 Lang
10 Schreck

1910

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Jeanette
4 McVey
5 Kaufman
6 Burns
7 Lang
8 Jim Flynn
9 Dan Flynn
10 Curran
Top


1911

champion Johnson
2 McVey
3 Langford
4 Jeanette
5 Wells
6 Jim Flynn
7 Al Palzar
8 Carl Morris
9 Dan Flynn
10 Clarke

1912

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Jeanette
4 McVey
5 Gunboat Smith
6 Willard
7 Ross
8 Mc Carthy
9 Jim Flynn
10 Palzar

1913

Champion Johnson
2 Smith
3 Langford
4 Jeanette
5 McVey
6 Jim Johnson
7 Pelkey
8 Willard
9 Moran
10 Carpentier

1914

Champion Johnson
2 Langford
3 Jeanette
4 McVey
5 Carpentier
6 Clarke
7 Dillon
8 Wills
9 Levinsky
10 Coffey

1915

Champion Willard
2 Johnson
3 Moran
4 Dillon
5 Wills
6 McVey
7 Jeanette
8 coffey
9 Langford
10 Morris

1916

CHAMPION Willard
2 Wills
3 Miske
4 Dillon
5 Morris
6 Levinsky
7 Moran
8 Weinert
9 McVey
10 Jeanette

1917

Champion Willard
2 Wills
3 Fulton
4 Langford
5 Norfolk
6 Miske
7 Greb
8 Dempsey
9 Jeanette
10 Gibbons

1918

Champion Willard
2 Wills
3 Dempsey
4 Fulton
5 Gibbons
6 Greb
7 Miske
8 Meehan
9 Madden
10 Jeanette

1919

Champion Dempsey
2 Wills
3 Fulton
4 Greb
5 Gibbons
6 Carpentier
7 Miske
8 Johnson
9 Norfolk
10 Brennan

1920

Champion Dempsey
2 Wills
3 Fulton
4 Greb
5 Gibbons
6 Carpentier
7 Miske
8 Norfolk
9 Tunney
10 Weinert

1921

Champion Dempsey
2 Wills
3 Fulton
4 Gibbons
5 Tunney
6 Carpentier
7 Miske
8 Greb
9 Beckett
10 Brennan

1922

Champion Dempsey
2 Wills
3 Greb
4 Gibbons
5 Miske
6 Tunney
7 F.Johnson
8 Brennan
9 Beckett
10 Carpentier

1923

Champion Dempsey
2 Wills
3 Firpo
4 Tunney
5 Carpentier
6 Miske
7 Gibbons
8 Greb
9 Renault
10 F.Johnson

[ironchamp]

Originally Posted by Sonny's jab

Langford made one hell of an effort there fellas.
It's not something I have the patience to do in any hurry.

Me either, and I created the thread. Being lazy but this is why I prefer the Classic Forum.

[DamonD]

I'd like to be clear on this, because it's been debated before...how would you define "ranked" for these list?

Are we talking about fighters with a top ten ranking? Or is, say, top fifteen fine?
Are the alphabet boxing org rankings fine, and if so do we pick and chose amongst them? How about The Ring ratings? Or is it going to be the potential grey area of personal opinion about who is and isn't worth rating?

If a proper stab at this is going to be made, it's important to be very certain about these parameters right at the start. Get that in place and it's a lot more straightforward.

[Langford]

Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier

I'm seeing a lot of errors here...
You don't think Willard counts as a ranked opponent for Dempsey?Gomez and Johnson were definitely both ranked when Walcott beat them. Where's Matthews on Marciano's ledger? I'm pretty certain Jose Roman wasn't ranked when Foreman beat him, but Peralta and possibly Chuvalo were.

In addition, the topic was "number of wins over ranked opponents," not, "number of ranked opponents beaten," and hence you're wrong to only count each fighter once; for example, since Marciano beat Walcott, Charles and LaStarza each twice, his total would actually be 12, and since Louis beat Pastor, Conn, Godoy, etc. each twice, he also has quite a few more wins than you credit him with here.

Re: Willard. I was going on how Ring normally ranks fighters, and if the fighter has not fought in a couple of years, then they cease to be ranked. I was going off of Ring's top ten. If a fighter does not fight he is stripped. Maybe you could argue that Willard shouldn't be stripped because of WWI, but, you could also argue that he hadn't beat anyone in three years.
Semantics, not ness. an "error"

I did miss Gomez, who became ranked the year after Walcott beat him, but Johnson was never ranked as a heavyweight by Ring. Ditto Matthews for Rocky.

Jose Roman was ranked 7 by Ring, the year before Foreman beat him.
Yes, Chuvalo was ranked and Peralta cracked the top ten (barely) the year before George beat him. So, I apologize to George Foreman. And give him two more. But that doesn't change the fact that for someone with so many fights, it is shocking almost how many were not against ranked opponents in either career.

It was a rough draft and took a lot of time. I knew I would miss a couple and said as much.

[Langford]

Originally Posted by janitor

I think you have missed quite a few out. Louis for example had 32 wins over ranked oponents if I recall OLD FOGEYs analysis.

well, if you choose to double up on ranked opponents I am sure Louis would be closer to 32. many other fighters would have more as well. I don't think it really changes the rankings at all. Since I kept everyone at one, perhaps it does favor fighters, like Holmes, Tyson and Lewis who normally just beat the top ten guys once.

I chose to give points to just ranked fighters, not wins, because I also wanted to look into black dynamite fighters, who will be extremely high because they beat the same guys over and over. For instance, I am not counting at the moment, but I would expect Wills to be very high and skew the stats.

just different ways to look at it.

[mattdonnellon]

Langford,
a really interesting exercise and very well done. yes, I'm sure there are more holes in it, but I'm not looking for them, the information speaks for itself. On a completely contradictraory note, somebody, (Doughles, Bowe, Langford, Jackson, Baer.) without a great resume-sorry Langford and Jackson had decent resumes- might beat antbody that ever boxed-especially Bowe? ps I've been drinking!

[ironchamp]

Originally Posted by Langford

Re: Willard. I was going on how Ring normally ranks fighters, and if the fighter has not fought in a couple of years, then they cease to be ranked. I was going off of Ring's top ten. If a fighter does not fight he is stripped. Maybe you could argue that Willard shouldn't be stripped because of WWI, but, you could also argue that he hadn't beat anyone in three years.
Semantics, not ness. an "error"

I did miss Gomez, who became ranked the year after Walcott beat him, but Johnson was never ranked as a heavyweight by Ring. Ditto Matthews for Rocky.

Jose Roman was ranked 7 by Ring, the year before Foreman beat him.
Yes, Chuvalo was ranked and Peralta cracked the top ten (barely) the year before George beat him. So, I apologize to George Foreman. And give him two more. But that doesn't change the fact that for someone with so many fights, it is shocking almost how many were not against ranked opponents in either career.

It was a rough draft and took a lot of time. I knew I would miss a couple and said as much.

Thank you for taking on this difficult task, I think the entire point of the excercise is that I wanted to add perspective to the occasional top 10 HW ATG lists.