Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-09-2008, 09:23 AM   #1
DFW
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 337
vCash: 1000
Default Ali-Liston I

Has anyone noted how the judges had this fight scored at the time of the stoppage? It is interesting that the fight was even on the scorecards. If you look at Ali's other fights up to 1967, none of his other opponents were able to stay even with him like that. Yes some of them lasted the distance and hung in there with him like Chuvalo. But if you look at the scoring in that fight it wasn't close at all.So I think Liston did better than we give him credit for in that first fight.Forget the rematch!!
DFW is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-09-2008, 09:27 AM   #2
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,266
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ali-Liston I

Think you should watch the actual fight instead of the scorecards. Liston couldn't even hurt a blinded Ali in the fifth round, and in the sixth Ali was more or less toying with him. It was by no means an even fight.
Bokaj is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2008, 09:56 AM   #3
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,660
vCash: 238
Default Re: Ali-Liston I

Maybe the judges had it even, but that was not a representative score at all. I had it 4-2 , basically Liston won one round and another when Ali was blind. Ali was in total control and made Liston do whatever he wanted to.

Zora Foley was genuinely even with Ali after five or six rounds after getting in some good right hands. Ali looked more like he was measuring his opponent than really trying to win those early rounds however. Doug Jones was doing well against Ali too.

But regardless of scorecards, no other Ali opponent gave up as easily as Liston did.

I imagine Ali having had many sleepless nights and the days and hours before the fight must have felt like nervous torture, but once they got in the ring, it was a relatively easy night for Cassius.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2008, 04:27 PM   #4
Grebfan9
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 224
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ali-Liston I

Bill Daniels gave Ali all he could handle and was ahead on the
scorecards when the fight was stopped in the 7th round, due
to a cut. Daniels was reaching Ali consistently with a jab
and a right cross. Daniels fought similar to how Ken Norton
fought Ali, very aggressively.


Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Grebfan9 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2008, 04:53 PM   #5
bxrfan
Sizzle
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Ball So Hard University
Posts: 1,532
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ali-Liston I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebfan9
Bill Daniels gave Ali all he could handle and was ahead on the
scorecards when the fight was stopped in the 7th round, due
to a cut. Daniels was reaching Ali consistently with a jab
and a right cross. Daniels fought similar to how Ken Norton
fought Ali, very aggressively.


Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
How old was Ali when he fought Daniels? What, like 19 or 20 with about 13 or 14 pro fights?
bxrfan is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2008, 07:26 PM   #6
C. M. Clay II
Manassah's finest!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 1,138
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ali-Liston I

Daniels was not ahead in the Clay fight. he gave him some trouble early but in the last three rounds, lay used him as a punching bag.
C. M. Clay II is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2008, 10:46 PM   #7
Grebfan9
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 224
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ali-Liston I

From what I have read, Daniels was ahead on the scorecards
when the fight was stopped. I have seen the fight and feel that
Daniels had the edge.

Yes, Ali was young when he fought Daniels, but I was responding
to a post that stated that Ali was never behind on the scorecards.

Ali had trouble with lighter heavyweights, like Henry Cooper, Doug
Jones and Daniels. These fighters had enough speed so that they
could land on Ali, whereas the heavier guys like Liston and Foreman
were too ponderous against Ali.

Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Grebfan9 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2008, 07:20 AM   #8
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,266
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ali-Liston I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebfan9
Ali had trouble with lighter heavyweights, like Henry Cooper, Doug
Jones and Daniels. These fighters had enough speed so that they
could land on Ali, whereas the heavier guys like Liston and Foreman
were too ponderous against Ali.
You have a point there. With the exception of Frazier the fighters that gave him the most trouble was technically skillful, smart fighters with speed and stamina, not the big punchers. I'm loathe to put Cooper in that category, though. In two fights with Ali he landed one big left-hook and based on that he's seen as one of Ali's most difficult opponents. A pro boxer always has the chance to land a good punch on another pro boxer in the same division, but that doesn't mean they're evenly matched.

Cooper wasn't a difficult opponent for Ali, he just landed a big punch when Ali got momentarily careless. Nothing else that ever happened in the fights between these two suggested he was a difficult opponent for Ali.
Bokaj is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2008, 09:54 AM   #9
Grebfan9
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 224
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ali-Liston I

Hi Bokaj,

I forgot to mention Karl Mildenberger - he gave Ali a tough fight
as well. As for Cooper, in the first fight, Cooper did score well
with his jab and landed a few decent body punches.

In fairness to Cooper, he was a fighter who had alot of tough
fights prior to meeeting Ali, so I think he was a bit faded as
well.

However, young fighters like Daniels, Mildenberger, Doug Jones,
Ken Norton - these fighters had decent speed and technical skills.

Guys like Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley were faded. Patterson
was disappointing in the first Ali fight, since Floyd had the handspeed
to be competitive.

Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
You have a point there. With the exception of Frazier the fighters that gave him the most trouble was technically skillful, smart fighters with speed and stamina, not the big punchers. I'm loathe to put Cooper in that category, though. In two fights with Ali he landed one big left-hook and based on that he's seen as one of Ali's most difficult opponents. A pro boxer always has the chance to land a good punch on another pro boxer in the same division, but that doesn't mean they're evenly matched.

Cooper wasn't a difficult opponent for Ali, he just landed a big punch when Ali got momentarily careless. Nothing else that ever happened in the fights between these two suggested he was a difficult opponent for Ali.
Grebfan9 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2008, 11:20 AM   #10
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,266
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ali-Liston I

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebfan9
Hi Bokaj,

I forgot to mention Karl Mildenberger - he gave Ali a tough fight
as well. As for Cooper, in the first fight, Cooper did score well
with his jab and landed a few decent body punches.

In fairness to Cooper, he was a fighter who had alot of tough
fights prior to meeeting Ali, so I think he was a bit faded as
well.

However, young fighters like Daniels, Mildenberger, Doug Jones,
Ken Norton - these fighters had decent speed and technical skills.

Guys like Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley were faded. Patterson
was disappointing in the first Ali fight, since Floyd had the handspeed
to be competitive.

Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
People are a bit fast to claim the fights Ali had in the 60's that were even slightly competetive were tough fights. The fight against Jones was without a doubt tough, but I wouldn't call Mildenberger a difficult opponent. Sure he gave Ali a bit more difficulties than most of his other opponents during those years, but Ali won just about every round before knocking him out. Mildenberger landed a good body-punch, but that was about it.

Same for Cooper. If it wasn't for that left-hook I think we would conclude that those fights were relatively easy pay-days for Ali. That an odd jab or body-punch lands doesn't make it a tough fight. It just might seem that way because Ali was so terribly superior in most of his other fights in those days.

As for Folley and Williams; yes, they were both past their peak when they met him, especially Williams. But they were by no means shot. Williams had won his previous fights and was a ranked contender when he met Ali, and both he and Folley were very well prepared for their respective title shots.

I do agree with you when it comes to Patterson, though. But it wasn't his fault that he couldn't make it more competitive - his back gave out during the fight. The pain was so bad that he was actually longing to get KO'd. Too bad. Would have been really interesting to see the two fastes heavies of all time tussle without any impairments when they were both reasonably close to their primes.
Bokaj is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013