The all things technical thread.

[SkillspayBills]

Originally Posted by DrMo

He's got ability & clearly trains hard but he doesnt fight cleverly

He's naturally tall & rangy at the weight but never seems to get full extension on his punches & spends 90% of the time at close range.

That's a lot down to father's padwork, it seems very much based around Enzo C's padwork in terms of lots of punches but Joe had a lovely pattern which he took from music i believe. He'd tap tap then bang bang, a lot of fighters struggle to mix the power of there punches up.

Watching the padwork with Vince and Nathan it's clear to see why he doesn't punch hard it's so basic what he's doing wrong yet his father doesn't see it.

You get taught as a kid to turn the hip and turn knuckle over as you punch. The older you get and better trainers you work with they tell you to sit on shots a lil. He's doing absolutely none of the above. He actually does something a lot of amateur fighters do which is hop back in straight line and dangle front toe downwards.

His father doesn't move him around, he doesn't vary the shots he doesn't demand more he just cheerleads. Stan Johnson type padwork without the hat and without the savage fighter.

[DanielJFiasco]

Originally Posted by SkillspayBills

Stan Johnson type padwork without the hat and without the savage fighter.

[bam bam]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

Cheers for that, Mand. (Btw, when do i start calling you 'Skills'?). Lol.

I've heard Manny talk about the improvements he's had to make with Wlad. He talked about how he had to work and work on making Wlad comfortable in the ring. Wlad use to do a lot of excercises without boxing being in them, He wasn't into actually boxing as part of excercises. He was big on the conditioning aspects but not the boxing aspects. He had to do a lot of repetitive work with him for hours on end. I think he's done a great job with him.

You can tell that Wlad is really not born to do this. He's just not natural. He flinches a lot and as you say pulls his head back at times. Manny has got the best out of him and manufactured things that protect his frailties. That dear in headlights look still comes out in Wlad from time to time. What was it Jay Z said? You are who you are playa, LOL!

Some Wlad sparring footage here for Mormeck aswell.

[brown bomber]

Philly Shell Q's

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHwPBTDDp00&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

This is a tremendous breaksown and I love the roman guard analogy. My question is this- how do you deal with looping shots from the mayweather/toney/hopkins defence.... I can box a littloe out of this guard and my natural instinct is to roll .... what stops a persistant attacker?

Is it the counters alone? Surely eventually the attacker will begin to wear down the defender?

Why did Catilijo give mayweather so much trouble?

Basically I want to identify flaws in the style- before I use/teach it!

[SkillspayBills]

Originally Posted by brown bomber

Philly Shell Q's

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

This is a tremendous breaksown and I love the roman guard analogy. My question is this- how do you deal with looping shots from the mayweather/toney/hopkins defence.... I can box a littloe out of this guard and my natural instinct is to roll .... what stops a persistant attacker?

Is it the counters alone? Surely eventually the attacker will begin to wear down the defender?

Why did Catilijo give mayweather so much trouble?

Basically I want to identify flaws in the style- before I use/teach it!

I personally believe the style has a psychological effect on the opponent. It's a sign of confidence which sometimes makes the opponent feel inferior. Early on if there punches aren't landing or just hitting arms it IMO breaks confidence. Also if used well as you say the counters can make the opponent weary of throwing which again falls back into the Psychological stuff.

Eubank although didn't adopt the roll was very good with his body language in the ring. He was the ring general to judges without really being the general in the ring at that time. His movements and his posture i believe helped him alot and it's same with Shoulder roll it gives off a air of calmness and superiority.

Flaws well it can be exposed if not set in stone, like all styles it has it's weaknesses if a fighter is willing to throw two's three's fours often for young fighters or fighters not perfectly trained using the roll they get caught and befuddled because it's hard to deal with and takes years. Early on i have no doubt with young fighters there would be more failure then success using the style but watching a football session last night with Ray Lewington he said something that struck a cord 'you gotta fail sometimes before you get better'. It's obviously a vastly more dangerous sport but with good coaching it can be made to work.

So Volume is one, Fighters mentally need to have a calmness and quick reactions. Volume was what undone Mitchell's shoulder roll against Katsidis as well as poorly placed hands and to aggressive.

I also believe fighters become a little to flat footed and rely on upperbody movement and don't use the backleg enough. The jab and right hand over shoulder is a difficult one as fighters get blinded by the jab and right hand sneaks over. Speed also troubles the style like others.

The important parts that get overlooked are the actually rolls away from punches and the leverage fighters get in there stance.

[DanielJFiasco]

Originally Posted by brown bomber

Philly Shell Q's

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

This is a tremendous breaksown and I love the roman guard analogy. My question is this- how do you deal with looping shots from the mayweather/toney/hopkins defence.... I can box a littloe out of this guard and my natural instinct is to roll .... what stops a persistant attacker?

Is it the counters alone? Surely eventually the attacker will begin to wear down the defender?

Why did Catilijo give mayweather so much trouble?

Basically I want to identify flaws in the style- before I use/teach it!

I think the "Philly Shell" (we need a better name for it...) gets too much credit due to Floyd Mayweather. The basis of Floyd's success is more to do with how he implements it. I think his best defensive trait is his manipulation of angles. When he throws shots he puts himself in positions where his opponent can't counter from balanced positions. Even if somebody reads him and gets a shot off at him, it's rarely from a solid base. It's a myth that he relies on great reflexes. Sure his reflexes are good, but what flatters them is that Floyd is leading the dance, he is showing openings and then closing the door on them.

The first Castillo fight is a strange one. Whether it was to do with his broken hand or not, Mayweather certainly wasn't at his best. He got squared up a lot against the ropes, and at times he crossed the line between fighting off the back foot, and just running, which is unusual for him. Here's an example showing Mayweather absolutely square against the ropes and being caught, something you don't see very often with Floyd. Castillo gets his lead foot right down the middle and goes to work. Floyd, realising he has got himself into a bad position then gets his on his bike.

http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=3463819&t=o GIFSoup

But I actually think it would be a boxer who could beat Floyd's shell, not a pressure fighter. A good boxer who can out position him, and draw his leads (that springing right hand for example) and then punish him. That said, I thought Marquez would be a tough night for him

Back to your question, speaking just about the Shell and not Mayweather, I think pressure and volume can overwhelm it, as can a great feinter but for me squaring the guy up cuts it wide open, more so than any other guard. It's the equivalent of flipping the turtle over and slicing into it's soft underbelly to use Hopkins terminology! If its defense was THAT good, you wouldn't be able to order turtle soup!

[Flea Man]

Lads, flicked on laptop for first time since holiday to start making some Kalambay gifs (and to upload the full 15 round masterclass of Iran Barkley) and to explore his various ways of causing his man to over reach and then his beautiful counter uppercuts.

But even tough I've got full connection (apparently) no browser seems to be getting on the 'net. Meh. But I will have a look around and see if I can sort it, Sumbu needs some analysis being like, one of the great boxers. I mean, schooling Mike McCallum?!? Fuck off!

I guess after that Kalule will need an analsysis

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by DanielJFiasco

I think the "Philly Shell" (we need a better name for it...) gets too much credit due to Floyd Mayweather. The basis of Floyd's success is more to do with how he implements it. I think his best defensive trait is his manipulation of angles. When he throws shots he puts himself in positions where his opponent can't counter from balanced positions. Even if somebody reads him and gets a shot off at him, it's rarely from a solid base. It's a myth that he relies on great reflexes. Sure his reflexes are good, but what flatters them is that Floyd is leading the dance, he is showing openings and then closing the door on them.

The first Castillo fight is a strange one. Whether it was to do with his broken hand or not, Mayweather certainly wasn't at his best. He got squared up a lot against the ropes, and at times he crossed the line between fighting off the back foot, and just running, which is unusual for him. Here's an example showing Mayweather absolutely square against the ropes and being caught, something you don't see very often with Floyd. Castillo gets his lead foot right down the middle and goes to work. Floyd, realising he has got himself into a bad position then gets his on his bike.

http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=3463819&t=o GIFSoup

But I actually think it would be a boxer who could beat Floyd's shell, not a pressure fighter. A good boxer who can out position him, and draw his leads (that springing right hand for example) and then punish him. That said, I thought Marquez would be a tough night for him

Back to your question, speaking just about the Shell and not Mayweather, I think pressure and volume can overwhelm it, as can a great feinter but for me squaring the guy up cuts it wide open, more so than any other guard. It's the equivalent of flipping the turtle over and slicing into it's soft underbelly to use Hopkins terminology! If its defense was THAT good, you wouldn't be able to order turtle soup!

You'd think that, for those reasons exactly AND the fact you'd need a good jab to offset Floyd's, that Arguello would be the perfect foil for Floyd. His punch picking, accuracy, timing, and nearly unsurpassed ability to place his feet in te perfect position to get off certain shots. He's also one of the hardest chinned, hard punching monsters of all time, the archetypal boxer-puncher (or rather stalker-puncher ) and a man who could keep a strong pace throughout the championship rounds.

Unfortunately, his feet were set in stone in terms of chasing an opponent around. Floyd's feet and movement surpass Vilomar Fernandez IMO, and his best offence is sharper and faster, if not as all-out dangerous, as Jose Luis Ramirez's, who also outmanoeuvred Alexis whilst employing an aggressive output.

I'd actually say Floyd is Arguello's stylistic nightmare despite Arguello looking the tick the boxes in terms of drawing the picking opportunities from Floyd.

It probably wouldn't be easy though. Not even Marcel had it easy.

Anyone who's read my Encyclopedia piece on Arguello will know how high I hold him. So maybe this will finally put the hater and underrated jibes to rest

[Flea Man]

Fuck me I'll have to do Moochy That will be interesting I'm sure.

[GPater11093]

Originally Posted by brown bomber

Philly Shell Q's

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

This is a tremendous breaksown and I love the roman guard analogy. My question is this- how do you deal with looping shots from the mayweather/toney/hopkins defence.... I can box a littloe out of this guard and my natural instinct is to roll .... what stops a persistant attacker?

I love that video.

Basically looping shots like wild-ish hooks can be rolled, very effectivly from this style, although it is more geared to slips and lay backs, rolling can be done well.

A looping overhand right can be an effective shot, but you have to remember this is the easiest shot to see coming, so it is a risk but if set up right, by say a body attack it can be very effective.

Is it the counters alone? Surely eventually the attacker will begin to wear down the defender?

How so? If the defender continues to land clean and the attacker is missing, only one man is being worn down!

Its a style that maximises counters, so I think matches but fairly well with persistant attackers.

Why did Catilijo give mayweather so much trouble?

Sort of mentioned it with the overhnd right thing. Everyone at my gym thinks I'm a genius cause I canbreak down this style pretty well. Basically the chest is the area to aim at, as it doesn't move and it throws your man off-balance and then you can target the head and body with ease. Also you can distract your opponent int this guard by say going to the body with some light shots then lamping a big one up stairs.

Basically I want to identify flaws in the style- before I use/teach it!

Clever man, I find a good way to find out the flaws is try it out.

I'd say a flaw is you can get swamped with it, if you set your feet and allow your man to get too close without letting off counters. Another thing is, it is really important to shoot counters out of this style as its hard, as with any defensive style, to keep a man missing for time. Make em miss and make em pay, is a must for this style, more than any other.

Originally Posted by SkillspayBills

I personally believe the style has a psychological effect on the opponent. It's a sign of confidence which sometimes makes the opponent feel inferior. Early on if there punches aren't landing or just hitting arms it IMO breaks confidence. Also if used well as you say the counters can make the opponent weary of throwing which again falls back into the Psychological stuff.

100%

Flaws well it can be exposed if not set in stone, like all styles it has it's weaknesses if a fighter is willing to throw two's three's fours often for young fighters or fighters not perfectly trained using the roll they get caught and befuddled because it's hard to deal with and takes years. Early on i have no doubt with young fighters there would be more failure then success using the style but watching a football session last night with Ray Lewington he said something that struck a cord 'you gotta fail sometimes before you get better'. It's obviously a vastly more dangerous sport but with good coaching it can be made to work.

Yeh, I agree here it takes a good while to learn it thoroughly to be top class with it. I try it out all the time and I'm just starting to get it to work, after years of getting my head punched in.

So Volume is one, Fighters mentally need to have a calmness and quick reactions. Volume was what undone Mitchell's shoulder roll against Katsidis as well as poorly placed hands and to aggressive.

Volume if your not firing back with crisp counters, you will be overrun with it, or trying to be 'too cute' with it, by say staying on the ropes etc... can be a big mistake also.

I also believe fighters become a little to flat footed and rely on upperbody movement and don't use the backleg enough. The jab and right hand over shoulder is a difficult one as fighters get blinded by the jab and right hand sneaks over. Speed also troubles the style like others.

Agree, it is easy to become too flat footed, and I think this leads to people becoming 'too cute' an staying 'in' too long.

The important parts that get overlooked are the actually rolls away from punches and the leverage fighters get in there stance.

Good point. I think this one maximises the right hand and right uppercut, and a low left hook (especially if rolling)

Originally Posted by DanielJFiasco

I think the "Philly Shell" (we need a better name for it...) gets too much credit due to Floyd Mayweather. The basis of Floyd's success is more to do with how he implements it. I think his best defensive trait is his manipulation of angles. When he throws shots he puts himself in positions where his opponent can't counter from balanced positions. Even if somebody reads him and gets a shot off at him, it's rarely from a solid base. It's a myth that he relies on great reflexes. Sure his reflexes are good, but what flatters them is that Floyd is leading the dance, he is showing openings and then closing the door on them.

Very good points, I don't think this style is like instant defensive greatness or anything but it can be very effective if used right and combined with other stuff like angles and range, as Floyd does very well.

The first Castillo fight is a strange one. Whether it was to do with his broken hand or not, Mayweather certainly wasn't at his best. He got squared up a lot against the ropes, and at times he crossed the line between fighting off the back foot, and just running, which is unusual for him. Here's an example showing Mayweather absolutely square against the ropes and being caught, something you don't see very often with Floyd. Castillo gets his lead foot right down the middle and goes to work. Floyd, realising he has got himself into a bad position then gets his on his bike.

Nice analyisis been a while since I seen it.

But I actually think it would be a boxer who could beat Floyd's shell, not a pressure fighter. A good boxer who can out position him, and draw his leads (that springing right hand for example) and then punish him. That said, I thought Marquez would be a tough night for him

Nah pressure does work but it needs to be smart. Theres a really good series of articles written onhow to beat Floyd written by Springs Toledo for thesweetscience, that I think anyone enjoying this conversation would enjoy.

Back to your question, speaking just about the Shell and not Mayweather, I think pressure and volume can overwhelm it, as can a great feinter but for me squaring the guy up cuts it wide open, more so than any other guard. It's the equivalent of flipping the turtle over and slicing into it's soft underbelly to use Hopkins terminology! If its defense was THAT good, you wouldn't be able to order turtle soup!

agree there, good point

Originally Posted by Flea Man

You'd think that, for those reasons exactly AND the fact you'd need a good jab to offset Floyd's, that Arguello would be the perfect foil for Floyd. His punch picking, accuracy, timing, and nearly unsurpassed ability to place his feet in te perfect position to get off certain shots. He's also one of the hardest chinned, hard punching monsters of all time, the archetypal boxer-puncher (or rather stalker-puncher ) and a man who could keep a strong pace throughout the championship rounds.

Unfortunately, his feet were set in stone in terms of chasing an opponent around. Floyd's feet and movement surpass Vilomar Fernandez IMO, and his best offence is sharper and faster, if not as all-out dangerous, as Jose Luis Ramirez's, who also outmanoeuvred Alexis whilst employing an aggressive output.

I'd actually say Floyd is Arguello's stylistic nightmare despite Arguello looking the tick the boxes in terms of drawing the picking opportunities from Floyd.

It probably wouldn't be easy though. Not even Marcel had it easy.

Anyone who's read my Encyclopedia piece on Arguello will know how high I hold him. So maybe this will finally put the hater and underrated jibes to rest

Agree Mayweather is hell for Arguello.

As for a boxer to beat Mayweather they are hard to come by. I'd say Napoles and Benitez are two.

[Spearmint Rhino]

What Floyd seems to do exceptionally well is force the opponent to re-set pretty much every time they throw a shot.

Thinking back to the Marquez fight, in terms of his offensive arsenal and feinting ability, of all Floyd's opponents he's the one with the tools to unlock that defence (size notwithstanding), regularly. Not a particularly ''volume'' oriented fighter, more a punch picker who can time the opponent to perfection..... but he was made to look very flat footed, which he is to an extent anyway, and was throwing hardly any combinations.

I think it would be hard to pick most pure boxers to beat him, especially below 147. They have to have a bit of something extra - an exceptional defence, a height and reach advantage, plenty of power etc.

A feather fisted, reasonably hittable operator isn't going to be good enough.

[Flea Man]

Starling at 147 would fuck him up.

[Spearmint Rhino]

Starling has six losses.

He's was a bum.

[Flea Man]

Die.

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by brown bomber

Philly Shell Q's



This is a tremendous breaksown and I love the roman guard analogy. My question is this- how do you deal with looping shots from the mayweather/toney/hopkins defence.... I can box a littloe out of this guard and my natural instinct is to roll .... what stops a persistant attacker?

The idea with the Philly shell is to not only defend and give yourself a good defensive posture and base, but to also make it more easier and fluid to counter back. When it's done right that's what sets it apart. Your basically trying to keep your hands free from being too busy blocking punches and so keeps you quickier in theory to counter faster. The good thing about it is that you don't need great reflexes to make it work if you master it properly. The downside is you can get yourself knocked out if you don't know what you're doing. That's why it's so important to master it more than any style of defense, imo. Many people can be style over subtstance with the Philly shell.

With looping punches rolling is good, but also trying to get inside or under them is sometimes more effective or using your feet. Looping shots should be the easiest ones to avoid, you just let them swing through and follow it's own trajectory and don't even have to try and block them. Sometimes people make the mistake when trying to roll with them of getting low or bending to one side and just staying there. This actually makes them more susceptible to being hit with them type of shots. So i would recommend sliding under them looping punches. Which will leave your opponent off balance and give you more countering opportunities.

Parry the lighter punches like the jab and roll with the power punches like the cross.

Why did Catilijo give mayweather so much trouble?

For me he gave him problems because he was a brillient pressure fighter really A + in that department and understood the pressure points in the ring. What i mean by that is, He stayed on point and pressured Floyd more with his PRESENCE rather than his punches. Castillo didn't go for the special effects he cut off the ring well and put on a lot of mental pressure and was instinctive in his movements, which is the key to pressure fighting. It's no coincidence that he understood this because he was JC Superstar's protege and sparring partner. Floyd was also not physically as strong as he is now so he was forced to give up a lot of ground. When you do that it gives the opponent the opportunity to carry you faster than you want to be carried. That's not to say that Castillo won the fight even if he did so well.