Sergio Martinez vs a selection of yesteryears MW's.

[lufcrazy]

So Martinez has just racked up the 4th defence (all by stoppage and all against ranked opponents) of his MW crown.

He seems able to adapt mid fight, up his workrate when suits, counter in the pocket and potshot from range. His punching power is also very impressive.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVMf9fmZp7k[/ame]


He's quite clearly the best MW in the world today, so my question is, how would he fare against some of the filmed Mw's from yesteryear.

This is not a gauntlet he'd run, it's just a selection of 1 off fantasy fights.

How do you think he goes vs:

Les Darcy
Mickey Walker
Freddie Steele
Fred Apostoli
Tony Zale
Jake La Motta
Ray Robinson
Emile Griffith
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Michael Nunn
Bernard Hopkins

All of these guys have a decent amount of prime footage available. The question is, how successful would Sergio be against each of them individually?

[thistle1]

yesteryear Sergio is a Welterweight, so he does'nt fair too well against any of the proper MWs...

he could fight BHop in a classic BHop spoiler,
LaMotta fought a lot of welterweight cum middleweights and had trouble too, so on his best night Sergio could give LaMotta a good losing performance.

the rest are too big, too strong or just plain too GOOD!

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by thistle1

yesteryear Sergio is a Welterweight, so he does'nt fair too well against any of the proper MWs...

he could fight BHop in a classic BHop spoiler,
LaMotta fought a lot of welterweight cum middleweights and had trouble too, so on his best night Sergio could give LaMotta a good losing performance.

the rest are too big, too strong or just plain too GOOD!

What makes you think he's a WW?

With same day weigh in he'd easily be a MW. Some of the more modern ?MW's on that list weren't notorious for balooning neither.

[thistle1]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

What makes you think he's a WW?

With same day weigh in he'd easily be a MW. Some of the more modern ?MW's on that list weren't notorious for balooning neither.

Sorry guys all this time I thought Martinez was 5' 7"... propably because everyone else is miuch bigger.

Still stick by my first post.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by thistle1

Sorry guys all this time I thought Martinez was 5' 7"... propably because everyone else is miuch bigger.

Still stick by my first post.

I'm fine with people thinking most of the greats of the past beat him, I was just confused by the WW comment

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by thistle1

Sorry guys all this time I thought Martinez was 5' 7"... propably because everyone else is miuch bigger.

Still stick by my first post.

Not a big miss . At least LaMotta and Hagler were midgets as well . However most of yesteryear's MWs were WWs in 2day's standards so he fits well among them .

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

Not a big miss . At least LaMotta and Hagler were midgets as well . However most of yesteryear's MWs were WWs in 2day's standards so he fits well among them .

How do you think he does Frank?

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

How do you think he does Frank?

Regarding a few of them I (still) don't know enough about , nor about Martinez really , so I'd rather not answer this @ d moment .

[PowerPuncher]

These aren't the best H2H MWs but here goes

Les Darcy - Darcy's technique looks very dated, so I will go with Martinez

Mickey Walker - 50-50, Walker has problem with speed and movement but Martinez's low hands against Walker's pressure and power could be a problem

Freddie Steele - Martinez bigger and faster, Steele technically more solid but maybe a bit straight up, hard to pick another 50-50 for me

Fred Apostoli - Apostoli's defence and counter punching and better technique see him win a UD

Tony Zale - H2H I don't rate Zale that highly, I think Martinez's massive speed advantage sees him win here

Jake La Motta - Martinez for me. Lamotta wouldn't have a size advantage here and Martinez is quicker and better outside, hit harder and the southpaw angle may give Lamotta problems. We've seen Martinez can deal with a very very fast pace against WIlliams, so the pressure isn't wearing him down. Lamotta when he does get inside lands but Martinez overall lands more and wins an 8-4 or 7-5 type decision

Ray Robinson - Robi faster and technically better, Martinez bigger, Robi wins a decision

Emile Griffith - Martinez bigger, quicker and the lefty angles, Griffith cutie and highly skilled but in many many close fights. This would be another 1 of them, I'm giving Martinez a slight edge

Carlos Monzon - he wins a few early rounds before Monzon takes over for a comprehensive UD

Marvin Hagler - Hagler wrecks him

Michael Nunn - Nunn is quicker and bigger fighting at a faster pace, Martinez maybe technicially more solid. Nunn UD

Bernard Hopkins - first few rounds maybe close before Hopkins pulls away

So I have him winning 5 of the fights if he wins 1 of the 50-50s

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

These aren't the best H2H MWs but here goes

Les Darcy - Darcy's technique looks very dated, so I will go with Martinez

Mickey Walker - 50-50, Walker has problem with speed and movement but Martinez's low hands against Walker's pressure and power could be a problem

Freddie Steele - Martinez bigger and faster, Steele technically more solid but maybe a bit straight up, hard to pick another 50-50 for me

Fred Apostoli - Apostoli's defence and counter punching and better technique see him win a UD

Tony Zale - H2H I don't rate Zale that highly, I think Martinez's massive speed advantage sees him win here

Jake La Motta - Martinez for me. Lamotta wouldn't have a size advantage here and Martinez is quicker and better outside, hit harder and the southpaw angle may give Lamotta problems. We've seen Martinez can deal with a very very fast pace against WIlliams, so the pressure isn't wearing him down. Lamotta when he does get inside lands but Martinez overall lands more and wins an 8-4 or 7-5 type decision

Ray Robinson - Robi faster and technically better, Martinez bigger, Robi wins a decision

Emile Griffith - Martinez bigger, quicker and the lefty angles, Griffith cutie and highly skilled but in many many close fights. This would be another 1 of them, I'm giving Martinez a slight edge

Carlos Monzon - he wins a few early rounds before Monzon takes over for a comprehensive UD

Marvin Hagler - Hagler wrecks him

Michael Nunn - Nunn is quicker and bigger fighting at a faster pace, Martinez maybe technicially more solid. Nunn UD

Bernard Hopkins - first few rounds maybe close before Hopkins pulls away

So I have him winning 5 of the fights if he wins 1 of the 50-50s

I wasn't picking the ten best H2H fighters. Just going through my list and picking ten guys who had sat atop the Mw perch for a decent length of time whilst having a decent amount of footage to allow for educated picks

[thistle1]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

These aren't the best H2H MWs but here goes

Les Darcy - Darcy's technique looks very dated, so I will go with Martinez

Mickey Walker - 50-50, Walker has problem with speed and movement but Martinez's low hands against Walker's pressure and power could be a problem

Freddie Steele - Martinez bigger and faster, Steele technically more solid but maybe a bit straight up, hard to pick another 50-50 for me

Fred Apostoli - Apostoli's defence and counter punching and better technique see him win a UD

Tony Zale - H2H I don't rate Zale that highly, I think Martinez's massive speed advantage sees him win here

Jake La Motta - Martinez for me. Lamotta wouldn't have a size advantage here and Martinez is quicker and better outside, hit harder and the southpaw angle may give Lamotta problems. We've seen Martinez can deal with a very very fast pace against WIlliams, so the pressure isn't wearing him down. Lamotta when he does get inside lands but Martinez overall lands more and wins an 8-4 or 7-5 type decision

Ray Robinson - Robi faster and technically better, Martinez bigger, Robi wins a decision

Emile Griffith - Martinez bigger, quicker and the lefty angles, Griffith cutie and highly skilled but in many many close fights. This would be another 1 of them, I'm giving Martinez a slight edge

Carlos Monzon - he wins a few early rounds before Monzon takes over for a comprehensive UD

Marvin Hagler - Hagler wrecks him

Michael Nunn - Nunn is quicker and bigger fighting at a faster pace, Martinez maybe technicially more solid. Nunn UD

Bernard Hopkins - first few rounds maybe close before Hopkins pulls away

So I have him winning 5 of the fights if he wins 1 of the 50-50s

far, far too much credit to Martinez and too, too much disregard for past fighters realities, playing field (Comp) and longeviety... Freddie Steele for example handled a hundred Martinezes, Walker fought UP in divisions, something that just isn't done today and for 40 - 50 years.

Griffith was a beast, Zale by many, many accounts was as tough as anything Martinez could give.

too much disproportional respect for Martinez,

as I've said a million times the men of the past have nothing to prove, it's already been done.

the men of today haven't fought UP out of their divisions,
they haven't met dozens of legitimate TOP contenders and fighters,
they didn't and wouldn't remain on top for years had they done so, the past fighters that did, well again it's already done.

Our boys aren't fighting hundreds of fights with relatively few losses by comparison and at 3 weekly to 5 weekly scheduals and on it goes.

[Lester1583]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Michael Nunn - Nunn is quicker and bigger fighting at a faster pace, Martinez maybe technicially more solid.

Is Martinez really technicially more solid?

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by thistle1

far, far too much credit to Martinez and too, too much disregard for past fighters realities, playing field (Comp) and longeviety... Freddie Steele for example handled a hundred Martinezes, Walker fought UP in divisions, something that just isn't done today and for 40 - 50 years.

Griffith was a beast, Zale by many, many accounts was as tough as anything Martinez could give.

too much disproportional respect for Martinez,

as I've said a million times the men of the past have nothing to prove, it's already been done.

the men of today haven't fought UP out of their divisions,
they haven't met dozens of legitimate TOP contenders and fighters,
they didn't and wouldn't remain on top for years had they done so, the past fighters that did, well again it's already done.

Our boys aren't fighting hundreds of fights with relatively few losses by comparison and at 3 weekly to 5 weekly scheduals and on it goes.

I'd disagree and say far too much of the rose tinted glasses for these fighters, they all have their weaknesses. Fighters today go up in weight much the same way, should I pick Toney over everyone in history because he had some success at HW?

In contrary to fighting 100 Martinez's I don't think Zale has fought anyone like Martinez, no one as big, conditioned and maybe no one as quick

Just because Walker fought up in divisions doesn't mean he didn't have problems with certain styles. He didn't do as well against masters of defence or speed merchants. At MW Greb dominated him, Flowers by all accounts beat him too. At WW an ancient Britton beat him, as did Latzo. At LHW he went 50-50 with Loughran

As for Martinez he beat the best MW in Pavlik and beat the best 154lb fighter in Williams. He's been top competition around the world for 12 years, just because he's only just came on your radar doesn't make him a flash in the pan

Originally Posted by Lester1583

Is Martinez really technicially more solid?

Well they both break the rules but I think at times Nunn gives up his height when he shouldn't have. I'd still pick him to win prime for prime

[thistle1]

PAVLIK...enough said.

when ever I want to compare Fans to Historians and men in the biz I always go here... always grounded breakdowns

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by thistle1

PAVLIK...enough said.

when ever I want to compare Fans to Historians and men in the biz I always go here... always grounded breakdowns

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Pavlik>Tony Zale

I'm not saying Martinez is the best MW ever or in the top10 for that matter, but he's far from the worst