Sergio Martinez vs a selection of yesteryears MW's.

[Flea Man]

He'd beat Darcy, Zale is 50-50, but he'd lose the rest.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Pavlik>Tony Zale

I'm not saying Martinez is the best MW ever or in the top10 for that matter, but he's far from the worst

Zale would lay waste to Pavlik!

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Zale would lay waste to Pavlik!

I agrre with you here Flea...it's amazing how Zale is disregarded..

[red cobra]

Griffith beat Dick Tiger with a 10 lb weight disadvantage...he would master Martinez. Martinez is way overrated..he's good, but he's so unproven.

[thejokerswild]

He would lose to Hagler but styles match up is very exciting to think about.

[Lester1583]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

I think at times Nunn gives up his height when he shouldn't have.

Yes, he did that.

Although I thought that was often because of overall laziness and arrogance of Nunn instead of someone like Paul Williams who simply gives up his height in all of his fights.

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

I'd still pick him to win prime for prime

Me too.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Zale would lay waste to Pavlik!

Zale lost his title to the 40s answer to Arturo Gatti

Originally Posted by red cobra

Griffith beat Dick Tiger with a 10 lb weight disadvantage...he would master Martinez. Martinez is way overrated..he's good, but he's so unproven.

Who has nothing in common with Martinez, Benvenuti is more of a similar opponent who he went 1-2 against. Rodriguez too more of a similar opponent and most have him losing the series

[Vysotsky]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Pavlik>Tony Zale

I'm not saying Martinez is the best MW ever or in the top10 for that matter, but he's far from the worst

Pavlik was a full blown alcoholic and that fight was even or possibly Pavlik ahead by a round before two vaginas started gushing blood above each eye, even then he was blocking or making Martinez miss quite a bit.

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

So Martinez has just racked up the 4th defence (all by stoppage and all against ranked opponents) of his MW crown.

He seems able to adapt mid fight, up his workrate when suits, counter in the pocket and potshot from range. His punching power is also very impressive.

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He's quite clearly the best MW in the world today, so my question is, how would he fare against some of the filmed Mw's from yesteryear.

This is not a gauntlet he'd run, it's just a selection of 1 off fantasy fights.

How do you think he goes vs:

Les Darcy
Mickey Walker
Freddie Steele
Fred Apostoli
Tony Zale
Jake La Motta
Ray Robinson
Emile Griffith
Carlos Monzon
Marvin Hagler
Michael Nunn
Bernard Hopkins

All of these guys have a decent amount of prime footage available. The question is, how successful would Sergio be against each of them individually?

He has NO chance and gets stopped by everyone. Apart from Apostoli, Darcy and steele who he would have a chance of surviving against.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Vysotsky

Pavlik was a full blown alcoholic and that fight was even or possibly Pavlik ahead by a round before two vaginas started gushing blood above each eye, even then he was blocking or making Martinez miss quite a bit.

As have been many fighters in history during their career

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Zale lost his title to the 40s answer to Arturo Gatti




Who has nothing in common with Martinez, Benvenuti is more of a similar opponent who he went 1-2 against. Rodriguez too more of a similar opponent and most have him losing the series

Zale was at the near tail end of a gruelling, accomplished career..he had just come out of 5 years of service in WW2 to fight a young and uppity Graziano, who he still managed to destroy in 2 of 3 contests. It was past-prime Zale in all the bouts.
You miss my point about Griffith...sure tiger and Martinez were dissimilar, but the victory over Tiger for the crown in '66 beats any thing Martinez has done yet..and you yourself helped prove my second point..that Griffith fought a wide variety of styles.against far better opposition than Martinez has faced.and accomplished more against them in proving his worth as a great technician..adaptable to a variety of styles. Benvenuti would have beaten martinez IMO..let's not even talk about Monzon and Hagler
Martinez is a good fighter and apparently turns on a regrettably large number of Lounge inhabitants in ways that have nothing to do with his fighting abilities..but he has not established himself as great, or even a very good fighter in terms of quality opposition at all. I'll give him time to do that before I start singing his praises against the list previously mentioned..you should do the same.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

He has NO chance and gets stopped by everyone. Apart from Apostoli, Darcy and steele who he would have a chance of surviving against.

a bit naive this seems.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by red cobra

Zale was at the near tail end of a gruelling, accomplished career..he had just come out of 5 years of service in WW2 to fight a young and uppity Graziano, who he still managed to destroy in 2 of 3 contests. It was past-prime Zale in all the bouts.
You miss my point about Griffith...sure tiger and Martinez were dissimilar, but the victory over Tiger for the crown in '66 beats any thing Martinez has done yet..and you yourself helped prove my second point..that Griffith fought a wide variety of styles.against far better opposition than Martinez has faced.and accomplished more against them in proving his worth as a great technician..adaptable to a variety of styles. Benvenuti would have beaten martinez IMO..let's not even talk about Monzon and Hagler
Martinez is a good fighter and apparently turns on a regrettably large number of Lounge inhabitants in ways that have nothing to do with his fighting abilities..but he has not established himself as great, or even a very good fighter in terms of quality opposition at all. I'll give him time to do that before I start singing his praises against the list previously mentioned..you should do the same.

Ability isn't all about who you've fought, it's about having ability. Griffith win over Tiger may be better than anything Martinez but it doesn't mean he'd beat him. It's arguably better than any of Ray Robinson's wins, but I certainly wouldn't pick Griffith over Robinson either.

To say Martinez is unproven is an ignorant statement. Pavlik and Williams are the top fighters today though and Martinez beat them and has beat them and dominated other decent wins that may have gone under your radar. Dzinderuk was 37-0, many peoples no1 at 154, completely dominated Santos who in turn beat Margarito. Benzema had just ko'd Karmazin who was another candidate for no1 154lber. Macklin just had a controversial loss to Sturm, who's top 3 at MW. Cintron an ex-champ he dominated to be robbed. You can't ask him to do much more than that past his own prime, waiting for years to get his shot.

You talk about Zale being past his best but Martinez is a 37yo and past prime now but still going on a 12 year undefeated run for most fair scorecards. I just don't think Zale is that great in all honesty, he doesn't impress me on film

You seem to rate fighters from your youth in the 60s and 70s disproportionally high RC. As for people in the Lounge rating Martinez, it's mainly for comedy value, I've been a fan of his since 2003 when he came to Britain to twice outclass our best LMW fighter in Richard Williams, I thought he'd become a world champ them but by 2008 I thought he had missed his chance to get a shot on the world stage

[lufcrazy]

Martinez has established himself as a very good mw definitely.

Couple more ranked defences and i'll call him a great mw.

[Lester1583]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Martinez has established himself as a very good mw definitely.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

Couple more ranked defences and i'll call him a great mw.

A couple more defenses against Barker-type opposition adds little to his legacy.

Unless of course longivety and consistency are one of your main criteria when judging a fighter.