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Old 03-17-2012, 07:09 PM   #1
janitor
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Default Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

Who was greater and why?
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

Greater is a loaded descriptor... As a pioneer, a social hero and in terms of testicular fortitude, Johnson is a giant, virtually unparalleled.

In terms of who was the better heavyweight, Holmes.
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Old 03-17-2012, 08:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Greater is a loaded descriptor... As a pioneer, a social hero and in terms of testicular fortitude, Johnson is a giant, virtually unparalleled.

In terms of who was the better heavyweight, Holmes.
I think that sums it up perfectly.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:37 AM   #4
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

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Greater is a loaded descriptor... As a pioneer, a social hero and in terms of testicular fortitude, Johnson is a giant, virtually unparalleled.

In terms of who was the better heavyweight, Holmes.
Lets take it as a straight up comparison of resumes.

Who has the better resume and why.

Include Holmses amateur fights, because these are essentialy the nequivalent of Johnsons early profesional fights.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

I think Johnson is greater, currently I have Johnson at 3 on my list and Larry at 4. But I'm banning McGrain from commenting on my opinion because we've been round the houses on the matter enough times

My list might change when I've looked into a greater degree of detail around these two, but that's a work in progress so for now I'm sticking with what I had.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:20 AM   #6
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

Holmes was greater as a fighter, and as a champion.
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

Johnson has the better resume.. I didn't think there was much doubt of that
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Old 03-19-2012, 01:22 PM   #8
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by DonBoxer View Post
I think that sums it up perfectly.
I third that !!
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

I don´t rate Larry´s opposition too bad...I think it was pretty decent.....
I have my doubts about the real level of McVey and Jeanette as top fighters.....because the footage is not really impressive....Burns and Langford were just too small, two guys that I can´t see beating ATGs at HW often (especially Burns, Langford would have a chance against some HWs, but probably not the SL that faced JJ)...
Holmes to me....but my opinion on Johnson is always changing....
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

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Who was greater and why?
Holmes... because I said so
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:23 PM   #11
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

Taller, longer reach, heavier.

Holmes was durable, had a great jab, a hard jab, he had a hard right hand, good speed, good footwork, he was accurate, he was better IMO.

Won first 48 and went 21-0 in HW World title Fights during this stretch. Was still a bad mofo in his 40's... even his 50's.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

Holmes.

I think his opposition was better than Johnson's. He was equally dominant, or perhaps more because he never lost until 1985. He had that good victory over Mercer, while past his prime.

H2H, I also give the edge to Holmes.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

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Johnson has the better resume.. I didn't think there was much doubt of that
Do guys with 8 fights, middleweights, lighheavies and shells of once great fighters count well on a heavyweight resume? Because I am still searching for some really good heavyweights on Johnson's resume. Granted, outside of Johnson, really good heavyweights didn't exist so much in that era.
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

Holmes.

Johnson has the names, but as Seamus pointed out: they are just that. I dont consider them to be better heavyweights than Holmes' opposition. He ran through a considerable number of rated fighters over his bulk of his primary run of 1978-82. Not to mention all that he brings to the table in terms of physical attributes, skills, ability. While I'm probably biased here, I dont feel it's too intellectually dishonest either.
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:32 AM   #15
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Default Re: Jack Johnson or Larry Holmes

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Do guys with 8 fights, middleweights, lighheavies and shells of once great fighters count well on a heavyweight resume? Because I am still searching for some really good heavyweights on Johnson's resume. Granted, outside of Johnson, really good heavyweights didn't exist so much in that era.

This can be spun in whatever way one is inclined ,imo.
I haven't made a pick here ,I am a big Holmes fan but in title defences his challengers included men with the following amount of fights under their belts.
Ocasio 13
Witherspoon15
Spinks 14
Williams16
Frazier10
Smith 15
Bey 14
Thats seven challengers, with a total 97 fights between them.
How many of those in their prime?

By contrast , Langford for example ,had over 50 fights when he was thrashed by Johnson, likewise Ketchel, O Brien over a 100 ,they may have been small ,but at least they were experienced , savy ,and ringwise.

Until film footage surfaces of Johnson's early foes, ie Childs, Klondike, Griffin, Hart, Martin etc ,we have to rate them according to what we read about them.

Holmes is easily top 10 , and for me no 5, so no problem from this corner with anyone rating him over Jack.

Most champions have wins over shells of once great fighters, it is a fact that "The king is dead long live the king," is a boxing cliche.
What would have been said about Johnson ,had he refused to fight Jeffries?

The saddest night I've spent in a closed circuit theatre was spent watching Holmes beat up a shell of a great fighter, a shot Ali.


Lets address Johnson ducking his black contemporaries.
When he was an aging champ , Johnson signed to defend against Jeannette at least three times , outside pressures vetoed the fights. The evidence has been posted several times in newspaper articles.
He may have avoided Langford ,[ the offers he got to fight him in the UK and the States were derisory , = high risk ,low reward,] ]but I see no evidence he was afraid to fight Jeannette ,and their actual fights show no reason for him to be .


McVey was comprehensively mastered in 3 fights, and showed no interest in a 4th.


Holmes missed Page, Coetzee, and Thomas, rematches with, Williams ,and Witherspoon who ,as a novice lost a highly disputed decision to him in a fight that Holmes finished with a closed eye and a puffy face , even at 50, no one ever saw Johnson in that state.
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