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Old 03-20-2012, 04:09 PM   #1
bman100
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Default For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

For those who know technical boxing, after going over some of the points in Jack Dempsey's fighting manual, I've got some question I thought people here could answer:

Firstly, Dempsey mentioned regarding the 1-2 that the jab part of it should be open fist and should close at the last moment of connecting. Is this correct? Never really seen the punch described this way before, do guys really have to close their fist on contact or does it not matter either way?

Secondly, When you throw the 1 part of the 1-2, your right hand protects your jaw, no? Dempsey ( and Don Familton has also mentioned) a knife blade type hand postition that the right should have to catch the other guys fist. Thing is guys like Duran (who learnt from Ray Arcel mind you) they just keep their hands in the protective position to protect their jaw then launch a beautifully straight right hand. They do not do this thing of catching the opponent's hand in their rear hand, or am I not watching closely enough? Would it not be dangerous to move the right away from the jaw and not have it firmly protecting a vulnerable area in case the other guy comes up with a left hook?
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Old 03-20-2012, 05:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

In Dempsey's era, gloves were much smaller. Ergo, catching and parrying was more in style than guarding. With modern rules, to use an extreme example, Jack Johnsons style would be unwieldy.

On the other hand, take away the big pillow gloves and Winky Wright gets tagged continually because he cannot cover a big enough area with his earmuff technique.
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Old 03-21-2012, 12:47 PM   #3
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

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Old 03-21-2012, 01:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

I think it has to do with your style and the style of the guy you're fighting... If you're in a game of jabs, then the open glove with the right serves, because you're catching/parrying the other guy's jab. I would think its an important thing to keep in the toolbox, but things like slipping to the left while blocking or turning would be applicable and better suited against certain fighters and in certain situations.

Being married to one type of defensive maneuver can get you smacked up.

Closing the fist at the last minute I think is a personal thing, I'd like to hear the reasoning behind it. I'd say as a negative effect from doing so would be that what if the guy moves into your jab before you close your fist? You either hurt your hand or hit him with a mushy fist... It is true that the harder you clinch your fist, the harder the punch will be (potentially).
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

Well Jack Dempsey said it gives that power at the last minute. Never liked it. Again, look at modern masters like Duran, dont think they did it?
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

I think its the result of the mindset of keeping an open hand to parry or catch an incoming punch. If you've boxed, you know punches get interference from arms, elbows, and missed timing from unexpected movements of your opponent.

I'd say to have any given punch ready at all times, but I'm no Dempsey. I'm sure in his experience that was the best thing to do.
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Old 03-21-2012, 02:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

You don't stand there with your fists clenched punch-landing tight the whole time; that creates tension, tension tires you out. A guy like Duran, very loose in the ring, I would almost guarantee that he clenched his fist enroute. It becomes something you do without thinking about it, if you are loose in the ring.
Catching the jab in the right glove is Boxing Defense 101(A); the very first thing. As he jabs, you circle left to cut the distance so your jab lands first as you catch his. I read once that somebody- maybe Ezzard Charles?- would catch the jab in his right glove and then follow it back with a right. To block the hook- remember that your body in angled so the left shoulder blocks the right- you just move your right glove a couple inches, roll your right shoulder and kind of roll inside it.
The thing is, you want that right hand there, in position not only to catch the jab and block the hook but to fire the right hand from right there. No telegraphing it or drawing it back or raising the elbow. Just shoot it.
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Old 03-21-2012, 04:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

I dont recall many boxers doing they knife blade position when thrwoing jabs, most guys just keep their hand in position guarding their chin. Duran was just an example, I cannot think of many fighters mentioning regarding technique to tighten their hand just before landing. Dempsey had a lot of rules of fighting but never really followed them himself, he talks alot about the right way to do it, but really when he fought, he just went in swinging hoping to get the guy outta there. It caused him to get stunned by lesser fighter quite a bit.
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:12 PM   #9
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

Also bear in mind that Archie Moore, when describing the jab, never mentioned these principles in as SI article (thanks to Stonehands). He olny ever mentioned stepping foward with the jab from the shoulder, not what to do with the rear hand or closing the fist on contact.
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

The point is, we've all seen many of the ATG' s do all kinds of different things in the ring... You've seen greats jab with their right hand all the way down at the chest or stomach... You've seen them in position to block or parry counters.

This all depends on the fighter, and where the fighter is at in relation to his opponent. If he has the guy tired and/or hurt, he may not adhere so strictly to a defensive technique...
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:34 PM   #11
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

Sure, absolutely. But there is always the technician's way which could be described as the "right way" that everyone should follow. Some can bend the rules but the technician's way is the one to follow with technique. Everything has to be grounded in some fundamentals. Hearns used to keep his hands low and got KOs, didn't mean his trainer wouldnt tell to keep em up, thats the "right way."
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

Quote:
Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
For those who know technical boxing, after going over some of the points in Jack Dempsey's fighting manual, I've got some question I thought people here could answer:

Firstly, Dempsey mentioned regarding the 1-2 that the jab part of it should be open fist and should close at the last moment of connecting. Is this correct? Never really seen the punch described this way before, do guys really have to close their fist on contact or does it not matter either way?

Secondly, When you throw the 1 part of the 1-2, your right hand protects your jaw, no? Dempsey ( and Don Familton has also mentioned) a knife blade type hand postition that the right should have to catch the other guys fist. Thing is guys like Duran (who learnt from Ray Arcel mind you) they just keep their hands in the protective position to protect their jaw then launch a beautifully straight right hand. They do not do this thing of catching the opponent's hand in their rear hand, or am I not watching closely enough? Would it not be dangerous to move the right away from the jaw and not have it firmly protecting a vulnerable area in case the other guy comes up with a left hook?
Your hand speed is slightly faster with an open fist. If you can master the art of making a fist quickly, you could deliver the jab with a bit more speed.


How to throw and deliver the 1-2 depends on a fighters speed, accuracy, range, and to some extent ability to take a counter if the cross misses badly.


The speedy boxers types looking to win rounds often opt for quick 1-2's. The rangier punchers might be a tick slower, and opt to put more weight into the cross.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:38 PM   #13
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

As Dave said, what if the guy steps in before you get to land that hard jab, is it better to sacrifice a little speed in case that happens?
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:47 PM   #14
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

I think this is the difference between a guy who is more defensively minded vs an offensively minded.

Also, what is the jab being used for? Whipping it out there as a range finder or to keep a guy at the end of it, or is it to break the guy's nose and hurt him with it?

Different fighters use it for different things. The same fighter can use it in different ways...
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: For Those Who Know Technique: The proper principles of the 1-2

Since everyone is an expert:
The 1 (Jab). There is some debate on rather or not twisting at the end gives more power. I'm of the opinion that it dose. Same ass waiting till the last momet to close the fist. There is another reason to rotate the arm. If you throw a jab ant rotate the arm palm away from you. Your sholder will rise up giving your jaw protection form a counter right hand. The jab can serve as a conecting punch or as a range finder.

The 2. (straight punch/cross). Once the jab as either conected or found your range bring it back into a defensive poistion. Idealy right infront of your face. At the same time your pulling your jab hand back in to a defensive poisition throw the 2. The motion works kind of like a lever increasing your power. Also rotate the arm palm outwards to protect your jaw from a counter left. Bring your arm back into a defensive poisition.
That's my opinion on the one/two.
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