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Old 02-12-2008, 08:53 AM   #106
Mendoza
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Benny Leonard, Joe Gans, preferred to stay at long range too, but when pressured they showed they could fight inside as well as they could fight outside, they didn't just hold and/or rest, but rolled with punches, blocked them and fired back to the body and head. It's impossible to improve on perfection your experts say? Add him better defense and better in-fighting skills and he'll be much closer to perfection than he had been. Both Gans and Leonard were better than Robinson in their completeness.
Sugar Ray Robinson had the best all around offense I have ever seen, great speed, great accuracy, great power in both hands, could counter punch, throw combinations, etc...

I think Leonard, Gans, and Sugar Ray were vulnerable to great pressure fighters with high punch out puts and top chins. Greb could beat Sugar Ray at 160 pounds. Let's remember Sugar Ray was a natural welter at 147.
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:58 AM   #107
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Sugar Ray Robinson had the best all around offense I have ever seen, great speed, great accuracy, great power in both hands, could counter punch, throw combinations, etc...

I think Leonard, Gans, and Sugar Ray were vulnerable to great pressure fighters with high punch out puts and top chins. Greb could beat Sugar Ray at 160 pounds. Let's remember Sugar Ray was a natural welter at 147.
Mendoza,

Check your pm`s and e-mail, as I got back to you a few days ago but haven`t heard back from you.
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:18 AM   #108
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Mendoza,

Check your pm`s and e-mail, as I got back to you a few days ago but haven`t heard back from you.
Ok, will do.
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:08 PM   #109
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Ray was a hair under 6 feet. Greb was 5'8 and not considered a big MW.

I am not so sure that the 1950 SRR couldn't do this. Greb was hell to fight but Ray could also get down and dirty too -he was a fierce competitor, but also a sociopathic warrior which even the great Tunney was not. Ray could be viciously explosive in there --and I am not sure that his multi-faceted, fundamentally sound, and more efficient offense wouldn't force Greb to pause.

Benny Leonard, Tunney, and Loughren saw that body punching slowed Greb up. Tunney and Tommy demonstrated it. I would wager that Ray's work to the body would make a difference. I would also consider that straight right of Robinson's... Greb could be susceptible to straight rights.

I think that Ray had the tools to defeat Greb -the style that worked best with him was based around these:
1. body punching
2. Make him miss and capitalize on that
3. nail him with straight rights

I think Robinson could be counted on to do those things naturally... and particular at age 29, not 36 (which is about how old he was when he met Fullmer).

You also have to consider that Greb would not be allowed to use his usual dirty tactics -and Greb was not quite as formidable without his head.

I'm favoring Robinson, slightly.
A pickem fight ,imo,Loughran said the key to beating Greb was to start fast and hit him with short punches to the chest and midriff,Tunney also utilised a body attack against the charging Greb,What a fight it would be!
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:11 PM   #110
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Senya13
What I have done was:
quote next-day fight reports where the newspaper journalists are pointing out this flaw in Robinson's arsenal. The only thing that I added on my own there, was only sum up their observations and call it what it is - weakness at infighting. By calling this view biased and wrong, automatically implies that you are calling the authors I quoted naturally biased against Robinson and plain wrong in their observations, meaning telling lies that do not correspond to reality.
You took a series of fight reports from his first two years as pro and expanded those criticisms out to include his whole career. I don't for a moment that the fight reports were a fair summation of what they saw. However, I do question your overstating the issue. By questioning your objectivity and your position, I am not calling the writers you quoted naturally biased against Robinson. It reads as if you are trying to shield yourself from any critique of your argument by hiding behind your handpicked reports.

The bottom line is that I think that Robinson was a complete fighter, you do not. I brought up quotes from known and respected boxing figures that confirm what I think, you brought up quotes from fight reports (and claim to have more from later in his career) that confirm what you think.

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Originally Posted by Senya13
After that you continue to ignore that part of my posts where I repeated several times, that there are many more examples of Robinson having no clue how to fight in close, except for clinching and holding, but you still continue with your excuses about him being green and inexperienced,
I didn't ignore these claims, I rejected them, and told you why.

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Originally Posted by Senya13
as well as you fail to come up with examples of him showing good infighting skills on film in any fight you saw of him, which would be the first thing to do if you wanted to provide any serious counter-argument to what I quoted.
Wrong. Perhaps you should read more carefully.
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:19 PM   #111
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Benny Leonard, Joe Gans, preferred to stay at long range too, but when pressured they showed they could fight inside as well as they could fight outside, they didn't just hold and/or rest, but rolled with punches, blocked them and fired back to the body and head. It's impossible to improve on perfection your experts say? Add him better defense and better in-fighting skills and he'll be much closer to perfection than he had been. Both Gans and Leonard were better than Robinson in their completeness.
Again, you don't understand Robinson's style and you evidently don't read those parts of my posts that describe his style. Robinson was not as defensively-minded as you may have liked. Nor was he as willing to fight inside as you would like, but for good reason. Robinson was a fierce competitor who was not looking to dazzle guys like his student -Ali, but was out there to inflict a beating and gain a KO. He was both mobile and explosive and fashioned his style around that.

He was best at long and mid- range. Inside was riskier, especially when fighting guys like Zivic or the unorthodox Turpin where you invited headbutts. So he took the efficient road. However, he was no dunce on the inside as you seem hell-bent on proving.
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Old 02-12-2008, 02:27 PM   #112
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by mcvey
A pickem fight ,imo,Loughran said the key to beating Greb was to start fast and hit him with short punches to the chest and midriff,Tunney also utilised a body attack against the charging Greb,What a fight it would be!
Ray Arcel remembers Billy Gibson calling in Benny Leonard to talk to Tunney about Greb and how to beat him. Gibson managed both.

Leonard told him to go to the body -particulary with the right because Greb was very elusive for such an offensive-minded fighter. Leonard also encouraged him not to rush the rematch. "The longer you wait, the better it is for you," Leonard told him, "because this guy dissipates. He drinks. He runs around with women."

Leonard stayed around Tunney because Tunney, who was a bit aloof, listened to Benny and respected him.

Anyway, this is a pick 'em. Although I have to slightly favor Robinson -who was as complete a fighter as there ever was.
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Old 02-12-2008, 04:47 PM   #113
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

I read that harry greb beat the snot out of dempsey in a sparring match. SO I would take greb in a WIDE UD
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Old 02-12-2008, 04:56 PM   #114
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Irish Steel
I read that harry greb beat the snot out of dempsey in a sparring match. SO I would take greb in a WIDE UD
Dempsey couldn't handle Greb -he couldn't hit him and he couldn't nail him and the problem seemed to have been that he was loading up too much.

However, if A can beat B, it doesn't necessarily mean that therefore A can beat C.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:01 AM   #115
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Sugar Ray Robinson had the best all around offense I have ever seen, great speed, great accuracy, great power in both hands, could counter punch, throw combinations, etc...
Nobody disputing he was great offensively. But only at long range (he didn't work much at mid-range with his mobile style). At close fighting he very rarely fired back.

Quote:
I think Leonard, Gans, and Sugar Ray were vulnerable to great pressure fighters with high punch out puts and top chins.
What's the base of such opinion regarding Leonard and Gans? Unlike Robinson they didn't mind fighting in close, even though both were at their best at long range too, same as Robinson.
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:35 PM   #116
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Ray Arcel remembers Billy Gibson calling in Benny Leonard to talk to Tunney about Greb and how to beat him. Gibson managed both.

Leonard told him to go to the body -particulary with the right because Greb was very elusive for such an offensive-minded fighter. Leonard also encouraged him not to rush the rematch. "The longer you wait, the better it is for you," Leonard told him, "because this guy dissipates. He drinks. He runs around with women."

Leonard stayed around Tunney because Tunney, who was a bit aloof, listened to Benny and respected him.

Anyway, this is a pick 'em. Although I have to slightly favor Robinson -who was as complete a fighter as there ever was.
Interesting insight into Tunney,s preparation,I read that Gibson couldnt do much with Tunney tactically ,so it made sense for him to enlist a great boxer ,and shrewd analyst like Leonard ,someone that Tunney would listen to.
Greb did like the wine and the women ,and disliked training ,but he was in the ring in actual fights so often that he trained "on the job ",so to speak.Reports of Greb making a fool out of Dempsey are true ,and Jack was trying to nail him,,[he never carried sparring partners],but doing 3 rounds is different to surviving the distance of a fight,as Jack Delaney observed"Harry got away with it for now ,but no one gets away with it against Jack for ever"
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Old 02-14-2008, 05:38 PM   #117
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Default Re: Harry Greb vs. Ray Robinson

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Interesting insight into Tunney,s preparation,I read that Gibson couldnt do much with Tunney tactically ,so it made sense for him to enlist a great boxer ,and shrewd analyst like Leonard ,someone that Tunney would listen to.
Greb did like the wine and the women ,and disliked training ,but he was in the ring in actual fights so often that he trained "on the job ",so to speak.Reports of Greb making a fool out of Dempsey are true ,and Jack was trying to nail him,,[he never carried sparring partners],but doing 3 rounds is different to surviving the distance of a fight,as Jack Delaney observed"Harry got away with it for now ,but no one gets away with it against Jack for ever"
Greb himself acknowledged that training for fights would be redundant in so many words.

And you're point about Greb looking good for 3 rounds is well taken as well. However, it did serve as a precursor to Tunney's success against him. Dempsey's style was, in my opinion, vulnerable to skilled boxers who are either (a) elusive or (b) strong enough and smart enough to move him backwards.
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